Engine swap options.

[CW]

OK heres the deal I now have a street only daily driver that I need to boost the power numbers in. It has a fresh 4.0L in it but I'm used to my stroker in my wheeler and I want something I can take to the track and get some kills with. So the options I'm considering are a 4.5L stroker, a 360, or a 7mge (turbo toyota I6). All of them will run me around the same money wise. The stroker is attractive because it is an easy bolt in but it is also basically maxed out once I'm done with it because face it, the 4.0L aftermarket is still pretty limited. The 360 will bolt up to my tranny and has more aftermarket support and as arguably the biggest power potential at around 390hp with 10:1 compression a good cam and r/t heads. Then there is the 7mge, I like this idea because it is a 24 valve, DOHC engine with lots of aftermarket support and if I add a turbo has insane power potential. There is also a chance that I can still use an AW4 or AX-15 with it and maybe even use the RENIX ecu to run it. What do you guys think I should go with? My goal is to run high twelves so the stroker is barely in the running if I add a NO2 setup.

 

[vertigospiral88]

360 ci w/ turbo(s).... LOTS more power potential, easier to set up, easier (cheaper) to replace when you run too much boost and blow it up, no need to worry about wiring 'cuz you can run a big holly 4bbl.....

Sounds good to me

 

[JJacobs]

Is smog an issue?

I like the turbo-8 idea too, but the price knocks it out of the poll.

Do you want grunt or top-end?

 

[goodburbon]

turbo with a carb!?!? :huh:

 

[vertigospiral88]

turbo with a carb!?!? :huh:

Yup. Just like a blower with a carb, boost is boost. Rising rate fuel pressure regulator, stiff wastegate spring, well matched cams and jets, tune the other two (or four, if you're a badass) barrels to kick in as the turbo hits high spool.

EDIT: Make that a centrifugal blower, please don't explain to me the difference between roots/screw-type and turbos/centrifugal supercharger (compressing the fuel in the intake charge and afterwards, etc.), I may fall asleep

 

[goodburbon]

I'm just not comfortable with the idea of running a stoich fuel mix through a hot as hell device while compressing it. or feeding a blow dryer into a carb. I know people have done/do it.....but thats something I would not go anywhere near:explosion


sorry for the tangent, I think that if bulk hp is what you;re going for, there's no replacement for displacement.

 

[CW]

Smog is not an issue at all. No inspections in Idaho. I am trying to work with a <$2000 budget so a turboed 360 which would require a special carb is not in the budget. I work in a parts store so I get a descent discount on eldebrock and holly junk. So a built NA 360 is still in the budget, and a 7mgte can be had for around $700 and with a few mods can take a lot more boost. I am shying away from the stroker because my 4.6L in my wheeler is pretty much maxed out and I am adding a blower to get over the 300hp mark.

 

[Dr. Dyno]

A naturally-aspirated 4.6 stroker with manual tranny will get you to low/mid-14's. Add a supercharger and you're in low 13's territory. To get into the 12's, you'd also need to add nitrous.
If you're serious about getting 12's, I suggest you start with a bigger displacement engine, preferably one that's lighter than the 4.0. That means Chevy LS1/LS2/LS6/LS7 with anything from 320hp to 500hp stock, and even more HP to gain from performance mods.

 

[vertigospiral88]

7mgte or 2jzgte are good engines, both usable in this application, but are expensive to replace/modify when compared to a 5.7L.... Besides, in the long term there's always going to be more headroom with a larger displacement motor (mod for mod, that is). Even if boost isn't in your near future with the v8 option (budget-wise), then just stay away from high compression mods for now and you can always boost it later..... And if nitrous is an option, well then you're already set!

IMHO, there doesn't seem to be any reason to go with a more complicated swap (electronics-wise, anyway), that will be more expensive to work on later.

Smog is not an issue at all. No inspections in Idaho. I am trying to work with a <$2000 budget so a turboed 360 which would require a special carb is not in the budget. I work in a parts store so I get a descent discount on eldebrock and holly junk. So a built NA 360 is still in the budget, and a 7mgte can be had for around $700 and with a few mods can take a lot more boost. I am shying away from the stroker because my 4.6L in my wheeler is pretty much maxed out and I am adding a blower to get over the 300hp mark.

 

[burntkat]

turbo with a carb!?!? :huh:

google "blow through turbo" or get Corky Bell's bible on turbocharger systems.

Turbos were done, so were superchargers, for YEARS before EFI or even MFI came into the picture.

It'll help understand things if you realize there's a difference between 1)atmospheric pressure, 2) ambient pressure, and 3) Boost pressure.

Those last two are what you're dealing with in a blow-through system.

 

[burntkat]

I'm just not comfortable with the idea of running a stoich fuel mix through a hot as hell device while compressing it. or feeding a blow dryer into a carb. I know people have done/do it.....but thats something I would not go anywhere near:explosion


sorry for the tangent, I think that if bulk hp is what you;re going for, there's no replacement for displacement.

it's no more dangerous than blowing up air/fuel mixtures with only a small amount of steel or aluminum between you and it. As long as it's engineered properly, no problem.

Also-- realize-- you are NOT running a stoich mix through the turbo. You compress the AIR, then add fuel to match, downstream of the turbo.

Yeah, someone's probably done it upstream before. : shrug : Can't imagine why-- adding the fuel downstream only helps vaporize the fuel and cool the hot compressed charge-- adding upstream won't get the benefit.

 

[burntkat]

7mgte or 2jzgte are good engines, both usable in this application, but are expensive to replace/modify when compared to a 5.7L.... Besides, in the long term there's always going to be more headroom with a larger displacement motor (mod for mod, that is). Even if boost isn't in your near future with the v8 option (budget-wise), then just stay away from high compression mods for now and you can always boost it later..... And if nitrous is an option, well then you're already set!.

another thing the GM products have going for them is that there's a HUGE community of people who've reverse engineered the ECU code and can help you burn any sort of chip you may need.

Take a GM EFI box out of a junkyard for $50, wire it up, and hook a laptop up to the ALDL port- tune on the fly, on the cheap!

look for DIY-EFI and GMEFI groups on the web, if you're interested. You can also go with a Megasquirt system, but it's MUCH less versatile.

 

[vertigospiral88]

It's been done, but it has a nasty habit of runining compressor wheels.... Something about compressing liquid .

On the other hand, try telling that to all the supercharged thunderbird (and GTP, since ya like the GM stuff) guys -- they love to use wetshots (N2O) and alcohol before the blowers, despite the fact that it does a helacious job eating the teflon coating on the eatons that leaves you in need of a rebuild after 20K mi or so.

Yeah, someone's probably done it upstream before. : shrug : Can't imagine why-- adding the fuel downstream only helps vaporize the fuel and cool the hot compressed charge-- adding upstream won't get the benefit.

 

[vertigospiral88]

Very true, there's good aftermarket support for low dough ECU fixes, but you can get a power programmer for damn near anything if you're not into the whole "magic black box" trip. Costs a bit more though.

I still say go with the carb, it'll save you lots of headache (and money) in wiring and getting sensors to play ball in a different application then they were designed for. Besides, the long term upkeep costs goes down with the carb (EDIT - No replacing sensors, ecus, and whatnot... Makes them SO much easier to diagnose as well). Major downside is fuel consumption, but if that's a problem then you really shouldn't be so hell-bent on putting a different motor in it anyway. Performance and gas mileage don't exactally go hand in hand, there's always a compromise....

another thing the GM products have going for them is that there's a HUGE community of people who've reverse engineered the ECU code and can help you burn any sort of chip you may need.

Take a GM EFI box out of a junkyard for $50, wire it up, and hook a laptop up to the ALDL port- tune on the fly, on the cheap!

look for DIY-EFI and GMEFI groups on the web, if you're interested. You can also go with a Megasquirt system, but it's MUCH less versatile.

 

[CW]

The crappy 4.0L shortblock that was installed before I bought the jeep is getting 8mpg now so fuel consumption is not a huge concern. I should note that I paid $150 for the jeep and I have around 300 and a lot of time into it to get it looking clean and running decent so I still have a ways to go before I even hit the market value of the jeep.

 

[vertigospiral88]

I'm kinda in the same boat: I paid $750 for mine, and I haven't had to put much into it at all: rear main (of course), u joint, cleaned up the NSS, tune-up and she's good to go.

The crappy 4.0L shortblock that was installed before I bought the jeep is getting 8mpg now so fuel consumption is not a huge concern. I should note that I paid $150 for the jeep and I have around 300 and a lot of time into it to get it looking clean and running decent so I still have a ways to go before I even hit the market value of the jeep.

 

[Sarge]

turbo with a carb!?!? :huh:

Uhhh, yeah. Bikes do it all the time. Got a bud who runs turbos on all his bikes and has never had a problem.

Sarge

 

[burntkat]

well I'm a bit wierd-- I say with the price of fuel-- and it's only gonna go up- but a turbodiesel in there, non CC, and turn that puppy up.

Then, run it on WVO. Pay about $0.50/gallon for fuel. Get 30+MPG. Laugh all the way to the bank. It's mean. It's lean. AND it's green.

[yes, this is pretty much my plan- just gotta wait til lthe snow melts to go pick up my motors ]

 

[goodburbon]

Let it go......I know people turbo carbed rigs, thats not what this thread is about...move along and stop telling me about all of your friends who blah blah blah...............I DON"T CARE!

we had an incident last month where a natural gas compressor had the incorrect purge time programmed into the PLC. The guy pressing the start button had an ear and a shoulder taken off. guess what. NO SPARK!
Pressure+heat+fuel+oxygen=BIG F"ING BOOM. so I don't care about your girlfriends cousins sisters boyfriends uncle who turboed his carbeurated lawn mower with amazing results. I just won't do it.

now can we please get on with letting this man know what he should do with his xj?

 

[CW]

On that note, it appears that with a 7mgte bell housing the ax-15 mates up to the 7mgte. That is a major plus. The only bad thing about the swap is the wiring issue.