Drivetrain swap

[Ecomike]

I disagree.

96 OBD-II also indicates cylinder missfires using the same technique. But in this case it gave the wrong code because it never completed the emissions monitors lock in (relearn process initiated after replacing a bad O2 sensor) process because of the miss fire. This same 96 OBD-II rig did report missfires properly 4 years ago when the heads cracked.

I actually reported this HERE on after discovering how it worked on this 96 rig, 5 years ago when the heads cracked:


"The ECU uses the master timing signal from the CPS to determine which cylinders aren't contributing as much power as they should (and thus which point in the rotation the crankshaft slows down at) and then sets codes for that."

The problem I ran into had nothing to do with CPU power, it was a buggy logic algorithm in the ECU that not been tested enough IMHO.

 

[kastein]

Interesting. I never saw a misfire code on my 96 even when pulling plug wires in late 09 or so, guess I'm wrong again.

I guess they just screwed up like you said instead of it not being smart enough.

 

[Ecomike]

Interesting. I never saw a misfire code on my 96 even when pulling plug wires in late 09 or so, guess I'm wrong again.

I guess they just screwed up like you said instead of it not being smart enough.

Well when it had all the emissions monitors locked in and drove long enough to see enough missfires from the tiny coolant leaks (it had hair line cracks, took a long time to completely crap out) it would deliver the CIL and shut off the fuel to that cylinder, causing and immediate a rough idle. Clearing the code would buy hours of smooth idle before the emissions all locked in and discovered enough miss fires to trip the miss fire code again, and start the rough idle again. The rough idle was caused by the PCM turning off the fuel injector, LOL.

So if you pulled the battery cable, and reset the PCM it had to complete the relearn and lock in all the emissions monitors before it could report a missfire. In my case (and maybe yours), it got sidetracked by trying to lock in the emissions monitors, looking too closely at the O2 data(?), but one totally dead spark plug/cylinder confused it and it never got there, never locked in the last emissions monitor, never threw the miss fire, but instead posted a lean bank 1 code.

In the cracked head case, the missfire was not 100% and super rich with fuel throwing off the relearn and emissions monitor resets. So it completed the relearn lock in process and then a while later reported the miss fire.

FWIW, it does not immediately report a missfire. It takes its dear sweet time and starts with a pending code, then after some period of time ??? it sets the hard code CEL, only if the missfire is often enough for long enough. Pretty cool that its timing is fast enough to see the rate of change of the time (acceleration) between teeth on the flex plate with the CPS to measure a late tooth in miliseconds, close enough to determine a non power cycle on one cylinder!!!

Kinda cool that it shuts off the injector fuel to save the Cat converter!!! So I guess will yield those two points to Rush, LOL!!!!

Just kinda sad to see Microsoft like bugs in the logic of such cool hardware!

 

[Rush Power Systems]

The plug wire example is a problem with all electronic fuel injection systems, or more accurately the techs working on them. It is a common trap that has gotten me and that is, you plug into the port, read the codes, replace the suggested parts, and scratch your head when it does not fix it. Today everyone relies on the computer, and the basics of air, fuel, spark are overlooked.

We had a vehicle that had been to 2 repair shops and one dealer and no one could figure out the problem, MAF and O2 changed, new injectors, on and on. Turns out the accordion boot between MAF and the TB had a rip in it.

I think the question should be, do you want to work on Renix or not, and do you have everything, that is if you don’t have all the parts available then it will be easier with Renix, but if you do it would be easier to swap it all out.

As far as OBD 1 vs. 2, I think it depends, a 1 vehicle is much easier to modify, customize, and mess with due to not having data bus to the gauge cluster, but 2 is more efficient and a better design.

 

[2stix]

i dont really agree that the cs130 is a bad unit. maybe if you keep useing the stock XJ one, but you can easily get one for a GM vehicle rated for higher amps for dirt cheap. i use the 105 amp with upgraded bearings (no bushings) and they work awsome. any higher amp rating and i would recommend upgrading the factory wiring for sure. basically you just unscrew the front portion of the housings and swap them out. (mounting holes are different). these cs130s have been being used offroad for many many years with huge success. you can even get marine versions that have better corrosion resistance.

 

[whompinxj]

Thanks for all the input guys! Souske, I'll probably be PMing you in a few weeks if I need help. I've decided to swap the whole HO engine and harness. That way nothing will be frankensteined together and I won't need a new flywheel. Plus I have no idea what sensors on this motor work, or the general condition of everything else.

I assumed this would kinda turn into a renix vs HO debate... but alternators? C'mon guys, surely you all can argue about something more important.

 

[2stix]

very true, sorry about the input. was just trying to inform folks about an easy and cheap upgrade for the cs130. i should have done that on another thread. sorry for the highjack. and good luck with your project. sounds like you got it figured out pretty well.

 

[Ecomike]

Thanks for all the input guys! Souske, I'll probably be PMing you in a few weeks if I need help. I've decided to swap the whole HO engine and harness. That way nothing will be frankensteined together and I won't need a new flywheel. Plus I have no idea what sensors on this motor work, or the general condition of everything else.

I assumed this would kinda turn into a renix vs HO debate... but alternators? C'mon guys, surely you all can argue about something more important.

LOL, OK then lets argue about the cooling systems, LMAO!!!:laugh:

 

[Ecomike]

So when are you going to upgrade to Windows 8?

LOL!!!!

The plug wire example is a problem with all electronic fuel injection systems, or more accurately the techs working on them. It is a common trap that has gotten me and that is, you plug into the port, read the codes, replace the suggested parts, and scratch your head when it does not fix it. Today everyone relies on the computer, and the basics of air, fuel, spark are overlooked.

We had a vehicle that had been to 2 repair shops and one dealer and no one could figure out the problem, MAF and O2 changed, new injectors, on and on. Turns out the accordion boot between MAF and the TB had a rip in it.

I think the question should be, do you want to work on Renix or not, and do you have everything, that is if you don’t have all the parts available then it will be easier with Renix, but if you do it would be easier to swap it all out.

As far as OBD 1 vs. 2, I think it depends, a 1 vehicle is much easier to modify, customize, and mess with due to not having data bus to the gauge cluster, but 2 is more efficient and a better design.

 

[Rush Power Systems]

So when are you going to upgrade to Windows 8?

LOL!!!!

when they work out all the bugseace:

 

[Rush Power Systems]

i dont really agree that the cs130 is a bad unit. maybe if you keep useing the stock XJ one, but you can easily get one for a GM vehicle rated for higher amps for dirt cheap. i use the 105 amp with upgraded bearings (no bushings) and they work awsome. any higher amp rating and i would recommend upgrading the factory wiring for sure. basically you just unscrew the front portion of the housings and swap them out. (mounting holes are different). these cs130s have been being used offroad for many many years with huge success. you can even get marine versions that have better corrosion resistance.

The CS130 is a bad unit, it can’t drain water due to the case design, and it never had bushings, no alternator has, you can custom cut the rear case to allow for an SI bearing but otherwise you can only use a wider version of the stock bearing.

Although the bearing is sealed it is exposed and will get mud and water in the rear bearing and that is one of the main design flaws. Also it is too small to dissipate heat, and I could go on and on, I have been building and modifying alternators since 85’, I remember the day CS units were released they were problems from day one.

Jeep used CS1212, CS130 and Paris Rhone, all 121s were 78 amps, all 130s were 105, and all PR’s were junk. Fact is, it just is not a good alternator, and that is why Jeep switched to Denso, it is much much better.

 

[PyroZona]

I will agree that the CS130 is a bad unit. Granted, it could also have been placed MUCH better than it was on my '87 XJ. I mean, come on...put the alternator lower than any other accessory on a 4x4 vehicle?!!? Doi!! This is why I have always kept a spare, high output (180amp...have a stereo system and 6 Hellas to feed) alternator around for when...not if...the one on my rig bucks the kicket.

But getting back to the OP topic, I'm just about ready to swap a newer engine into my '87 XJ and am hoping someone can list all of the HO components that need to be changed out when swapping away from the Renix system. I've read some "I think" posts, where there are conflicting opinions of what needs to come from the donor, but have yet to find the definitive list (and yes, I have searched).

But so far, I think the list goes something like this:

- ECU
- engine harness
- sensors
- gauge cluster
- throttle cable
- fuel pump (?)

This is taking into account that the engine comes from the donor with the intake, exhaust, throttle body, fuel rail and all belt-driven accessories attached.

Can anyone/everyone confirm and add to, if necessary, the above list?? Also, as long as I get a pre-2000 donor, I should be able to use pretty much any exhaust header I want to as long as it matches the year of the cylinder head, correct?

The donor I'll be using will either be a '95 or '96. Should I shoot for the '96 due to the more desirable head? I may end up deciding to just build the donor into a stroker before swapping, depending on condition of donor...but don't know yet. My main reasons for doing the swap are more power, better mpg (getting 10-12 now) and greater mod-friendliness.

Lots of questions, I know. But hopefully these questions can all be answered difinitively.

Thanks in advance!

Peter

 

[Rush Power Systems]

I will agree that the CS130 is a bad unit. Granted, it could also have been placed MUCH better than it was on my '87 XJ. I mean, come on...put the alternator lower than any other accessory on a 4x4 vehicle?!!? Doi!! This is why I have always kept a spare, high output (180amp...have a stereo system and 6 Hellas to feed) alternator around for when...not if...the one on my rig bucks the kicket.

But getting back to the OP topic, I'm just about ready to swap a newer engine into my '87 XJ and am hoping someone can list all of the HO components that need to be changed out when swapping away from the Renix system. I've read some "I think" posts, where there are conflicting opinions of what needs to come from the donor, but have yet to find the definitive list (and yes, I have searched).

But so far, I think the list goes something like this:

- ECU
- engine harness
- sensors
- gauge cluster
- throttle cable
- fuel pump (?)

This is taking into account that the engine comes from the donor with the intake, exhaust, throttle body, fuel rail and all belt-driven accessories attached.

Can anyone/everyone confirm and add to, if necessary, the above list?? Also, as long as I get a pre-2000 donor, I should be able to use pretty much any exhaust header I want to as long as it matches the year of the cylinder head, correct?

The donor I'll be using will either be a '95 or '96. Should I shoot for the '96 due to the more desirable head? I may end up deciding to just build the donor into a stroker before swapping, depending on condition of donor...but don't know yet. My main reasons for doing the swap are more power, better mpg (getting 10-12 now) and greater mod-friendliness.

Lots of questions, I know. But hopefully these questions can all be answered difinitively.

Thanks in advance!

Peter

Sorry you probably do not have a 180 amp alternator, if you did you would have no output until 1200 engine RPM or a pulley that is 1.4” diameter, the CS130 is only stable to 150 amps, it is too difficult to generate a field on anything more at low RPM.

The easiest way to do the swap is with a pre-95, note, I said easiest way. The 96+ have data bus lines between the gauges and the ECU and that can give you some issues so it is more work. Pre-96 does not have direct interaction so the gauges are much easier. Both can work but when we do a 96+ we graft in the cluster whenever possible to make it easier.

 

[kastein]

Sorry you probably do not have a 180 amp alternator, if you did you would have no output until 1200 engine RPM or a pulley that is 1.4” diameter, the CS130 is only stable to 150 amps, it is too difficult to generate a field on anything more at low RPM.

The easiest way to do the swap is with a pre-95, note, I said easiest way. The 96+ have data bus lines between the gauges and the ECU and that can give you some issues so it is more work. Pre-96 does not have direct interaction so the gauges are much easier. Both can work but when we do a 96+ we graft in the cluster whenever possible to make it easier.

Agreed, though 96s aren't too bad as donors - they have the old style instrument cluster, new style ECU, mechanical airbags, the old style TCU, and some changes to engine sensors. I'd still agree on sticking with a 95 or earlier.

96s also have a rear o2 sensor you'd have to fake out, tune out, or install.

I have heard reports that a 96 ECU will drive a 97+ CCD based instrument cluster but haven't verified it and that's out of the scope of this project. I know it'll drive the older style gauges because, well, it has em from the factory.

 

[87manche]

96s also have a rear o2 sensor you'd have to fake out, tune out, or install.

and a bastard fuel pump assembly.

 

[kastein]

Very true (being a 96 XJ owner in the rust belt sucked) - though that doesn't really affect a 96's usage as a drivetrain swap donor, since you'd be using an early HO fuel rail and the stock RENIX fuel pump/hangar/sender* assembly along with the stock RENIX gauge cluster.

* Rush - hopefully we can agree on this one

 

[souske]

and a bastard fuel pump assembly.

Not really, the pump is the same as the other HO rigs, the only difference is the in tank regulator

 

[kastein]

Well, that and the fuel level sender is a wonky one-year design. It's got two senders in it, one referenced to the fuel tank ground and the other not. It's not compatible with the old 95-down sender design OR the 97-up design. Why? No idea.

Nothing really wrong with them as a drivetrain donor, just very slightly more complicated, thus the "aim for a 95 or earlier donor" suggestion.

 

[Rush Power Systems]

Very true (being a 96 XJ owner in the rust belt sucked) - though that doesn't really affect a 96's usage as a drivetrain swap donor, since you'd be using an early HO fuel rail and the stock RENIX fuel pump/hangar/sender* assembly along with the stock RENIX gauge cluster.

* Rush - hopefully we can agree on this one

we could always agree that i am right:cheers:

 

[PyroZona]

Sorry you probably do not have a 180 amp alternator, if you did you would have no output until 1200 engine RPM or a pulley that is 1.4” diameter, the CS130 is only stable to 150 amps, it is too difficult to generate a field on anything more at low RPM.

The easiest way to do the swap is with a pre-95, note, I said easiest way. The 96+ have data bus lines between the gauges and the ECU and that can give you some issues so it is more work. Pre-96 does not have direct interaction so the gauges are much easier. Both can work but when we do a 96+ we graft in the cluster whenever possible to make it easier.

Well, I bought the alternators advertised as 180 amp and I use a 1.75" diameter pulley on it. It lacks a teeny bit at idle, but at 1200 rpm and above, it seems to do alright (like you said).

And I just found another possible donor...a '98...that I could probably get anything I needed from (I think). I've read that the 0630 heads are prone to cracking, though. Not sure if this happens predominantly when used on strokers or even on the garden variety 4.0's.

The second O2 sensor wouldn't be a big deal, as I'll be putting in a new exhaust anyway. But from what I'm getting from you all, it sounds like my best bet would be to go with a '95 donor...especially if I feel over-zealous and want to swap EVERYTHING from it into my Renix rig. Ideally, I was wanting the block from a '96 for the extra beefiness I've read about, but think I can do that at a later date if I feel the need.

Ok, so anyone have anything to add to the list of things from the donor needed for a complete swap??