Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
I'll mention it, thanks to all.
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Death Wobble has me stumped
- Thread starter Devilfrog
- Start date
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
so we realigned the angles, redrilled new holes nice and true, and after all that now my steering box has developed a lot of play, so Going to swap to a YJ box and see where we go from there.
While it was in last I had them box the axle link mounts (lowers and the pass upper) and also brace the tracbar mount to the upper link mount so they are tied together and eliminate any possible flex there.
The sway bar mounts were also redome by boxing in the spring mounts and building off the inside so now my links are straight (also one of the sway links studs had torn free from the bracket).
It's getting better, last trip out I still had DW but it was controllable ... as it started I could brake and pull it inline again. BUT, when I hooked up my trailer to bring it home I had an episode and HOLY CRAP it was the worst of all. I'm hoping with the new bracing, a new box and the stiffer springs I should be back in business again.
On an upshot I just snagged a 29spl 8.25 4.56 with detroit and spare shafts, and a HP D30 with 2 spare shaft sets, master rebuild kit and True trac but no R&P (but was previously geared to 4.56) both with upgraded covers and recent rebuilds (d30 snapped the pinion so that's why it needs new gears but includes everything need except the geras themselves - easy) for $500cdn ... which is a good deal in these parts.
Down side is I may be going back down this road again but on a new axle.
While it was in last I had them box the axle link mounts (lowers and the pass upper) and also brace the tracbar mount to the upper link mount so they are tied together and eliminate any possible flex there.
The sway bar mounts were also redome by boxing in the spring mounts and building off the inside so now my links are straight (also one of the sway links studs had torn free from the bracket).
It's getting better, last trip out I still had DW but it was controllable ... as it started I could brake and pull it inline again. BUT, when I hooked up my trailer to bring it home I had an episode and HOLY CRAP it was the worst of all. I'm hoping with the new bracing, a new box and the stiffer springs I should be back in business again.
On an upshot I just snagged a 29spl 8.25 4.56 with detroit and spare shafts, and a HP D30 with 2 spare shaft sets, master rebuild kit and True trac but no R&P (but was previously geared to 4.56) both with upgraded covers and recent rebuilds (d30 snapped the pinion so that's why it needs new gears but includes everything need except the geras themselves - easy) for $500cdn ... which is a good deal in these parts.
Down side is I may be going back down this road again but on a new axle.
I'd be interested in getting feedback on this comment... '01 XJ, 230,XXX
While re-aligning my front end last year I set my toe-in way too far (3/4-1"). The next big bump created terrible death wobble that persisted until I went back to 0-1/4" toe-in. I list the mileage to note I have several worn parts on the frontend yet experienced no death wobble (as long as a good steering damper was in place) until after the alignment.
I know where my issues are, but this is something else worth checking.
While re-aligning my front end last year I set my toe-in way too far (3/4-1"). The next big bump created terrible death wobble that persisted until I went back to 0-1/4" toe-in. I list the mileage to note I have several worn parts on the frontend yet experienced no death wobble (as long as a good steering damper was in place) until after the alignment.
I know where my issues are, but this is something else worth checking.
Last edited:
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
Yeah, I have checked and reset my toe several times as well. When it's wrong it's really noticable. I'm currently at 1/8" in but next time out I'm going to go to 1/16" in. I'm hoping to be better than I was this time out.
I'm also looking at replacing my tracbar with one made from two johnny joints (or one JJ and a bushing but one with matching tjreadings) so I can make adjustments on the fly as well.
But that'll come later.
I'm also looking at replacing my tracbar with one made from two johnny joints (or one JJ and a bushing but one with matching tjreadings) so I can make adjustments on the fly as well.
But that'll come later.
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
OK I'vehad everything rebracd, link mounts and tracbar realigned and redroilled to reduced any chance of slop.
what I have now is still a deth wobble like issue but now there is no steering wheel movement ... it's more like what I have now is more wheel hop ...
This leads me back to my original thoughts that my issue is the result of an improper relationship between my spring rate (164 lb/in) and the shocks Compression/Rebound dampening.
When I do have an episode now it ls quite linear, and there is less side to side play or movement as it were. I can roll up to 85kph without an issue now and it's only on the really big hits I have an issue. I can almost predict when it'll happen now.
so, my latest attempt will be to swap out my soft springs for BDS 240 lb/in 4.5" springs with a 1" spacer. My current shocks are Valved for a JK with 4" lift and those springs would have been in the 240 lb/in range as well. I'm really not in the mood to buy new shocks again ... but that'll be my next step if this doesn't pan out. Either Rancho RS9000's or Pro-Comp MX-6's as they are both adjustable.
what I have now is still a deth wobble like issue but now there is no steering wheel movement ... it's more like what I have now is more wheel hop ...
This leads me back to my original thoughts that my issue is the result of an improper relationship between my spring rate (164 lb/in) and the shocks Compression/Rebound dampening.
When I do have an episode now it ls quite linear, and there is less side to side play or movement as it were. I can roll up to 85kph without an issue now and it's only on the really big hits I have an issue. I can almost predict when it'll happen now.
so, my latest attempt will be to swap out my soft springs for BDS 240 lb/in 4.5" springs with a 1" spacer. My current shocks are Valved for a JK with 4" lift and those springs would have been in the 240 lb/in range as well. I'm really not in the mood to buy new shocks again ... but that'll be my next step if this doesn't pan out. Either Rancho RS9000's or Pro-Comp MX-6's as they are both adjustable.
Ben824
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Woodstock, GA
Before you burn more money have you temporarily tried swapping on another set of wheels and tires? Easy and cheap and you can atleast rule that out.
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
It's not really spending money I wasn't already planning to. I already planned to box all the brackets. I bought the BDS springs a month back.
As for the tires ... I swapped with my wife's JK with no change, and no issues on hers.
As for the tires ... I swapped with my wife's JK with no change, and no issues on hers.
MaxxXJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield CA
How did you swap XJ wheels with JK wheels considering the bolt pattern is different?
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
Re: Re: Death Wobble has me stumped
With the spydertrax adapters I've been running for the last 6months or so.
With the spydertrax adapters I've been running for the last 6months or so.
MaxxXJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield CA
gotcha, dont think the adaptors could of effected the wheel bearings at all?
id prolly avoid rancho's and pro comp shocks all together, ive never had good luck with them. id at the very least get the bilstein 5100's, i have the 5150's and love them... big pot holes and bouncing tire with a crappy shock would take time to stop it from hopping, with the spring fighting it back down it could only aid in the bounce until you slowed down. just what ive expierenced in my cheap shock buying days...
id prolly avoid rancho's and pro comp shocks all together, ive never had good luck with them. id at the very least get the bilstein 5100's, i have the 5150's and love them... big pot holes and bouncing tire with a crappy shock would take time to stop it from hopping, with the spring fighting it back down it could only aid in the bounce until you slowed down. just what ive expierenced in my cheap shock buying days...
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
prior to my issues I was running a set of 219 lb/in springs and 1 3/4" spacers with everything else stock and a set of old RS5000's ... no issues what so ever hit any hole at speed, 120kph+ without issue.
Do the WJ swap, replaced wheel Ball Joints, Unit Bearings, all new TRE's and DRE's (1-tons) the axle was rebuilt with the regear in September, literally the front end is new disk to disk. the only real change besides the whole WJ knuckle thing ... was the swap to the RE springs with the 164 lb/in rate. Been doing my homework on spring rates and dampening.
I can drive at any speed over normal roadways, but when i get into the really chopped up cracked roads (and I mean like 3" deep potholes, and whole dropped sections of pavement and the like) is when I have my "issues". If I just did normal city driving I'd never even know I had issues. It's only because i happen to work down one of the crappiest 148km sections of highway BC has to offer that I even found out I had the issue.
a major indication of improper dampening is ongoing wheel hop, usually associated with multiple bump hits at speed. I already have the stiffer springs so it's a route I'm going to try ... really what do I have to lose. Or I can likely go buy the shocks valved for these springs,
the problem is my springs aren't fighting anything, my shocks are valved for a stiffer spring rate. Matching them up may solve the issue if the the issue is wheel hop.
To be clear this isn't a vibration, isn't a shake, or a simple shimmy ...
this is a bump above a certain speed, that set off a chain reaction ... with the initial hit I get a shake in the front end, then just as you would expect a normal suspension to dampen the hit, mine goes into overdrive and it's is literally like it shifts a gear and goes apeshit. with everything I've done so far I've gone from standing on the brakes holding on for dear life while listening to my wheels squeal as my front end bounces off the road (yes, I hear it do so, chirp, chirp, chirp as I come to a stop) to now I just need to hold the brakes and whiles it's still bouncing there is no more side to side movement and the vehicle even tracs staright while bouncing. Even before there was very little side to side movement even in the steering wheel. From what I felt, the only side to side movement was due to the trac bar doing what it is supposed to and as it is a fixed length, going up will push the wheel one way and going back down will push it the other, simple as that. It was never the wobbling wheel of death type wobble but the pogo stick dance from hell more so.
There was far more movement in the wheel and axle when the tracbar was it's original 9" shorter than the drag link. But, now that it's completely parallel to, and only 3" shorter than the drag link, there is almost nothing felt as far as sidie to side turning movements. What I do feel is more just a vibration of the steering column associated to being attached to a front end gone cracktasticly insane.
If I were to remove the shocks, the spring will bounce uncontrollably until I stop, at ~70kph I get a series of bumps from a deep pothole quite similar to blown shocks. 4-6 bounces as it were. When going over a simple speed bump my front end is marshmellow soft and I a soft plush bump in the front and the typical jeep ride in the rear.
Before the WJ swap, with the stock steering stretched to it's limit, and all arms exactly the same as they are now but with slightly stiffer springs ... I got a bump pretty close to stock on the highway over potholes, and the 6 speedbumps in my Cul-de-sac (and that works out to one every 150' FYI). This is with the same Rancho shocks I first used after the WJ swap with the softer springs and initially with no SS mind you (it was added after my first trip to work when, after driving for 4 days without issue I finally hit the 'right' stretch of road).
I'll stop there ... It's just so frigging frustrating really ... even trying to research Death Wobble is misleading as a lot of out of balance tires, and worn u-joints, and driveshaft vibration get called DW when anyone who has actually experienced true DW knows it isn't. Hell I can deal with vibrations that's easy and simple by comparison to this. I mean I can drive 110kph down the highway trouble free for miles, and then there is that one special bump, or series of bumps and Blammo it all goes to hell. And then once I stop it's all cream pies and buttercups again until I hit that one magic bump or series of bumps ... and BLAMMO ... "holy hell I need new undies, dear god I forgot to tell the wife I love her, please don't let me die!" until I stop and then it's all roses and cupcakes until I hit ... you get the idea. Problem is there are no stretches of hellishness within 150kms of me to find out if I've fixed things. So, each shift home I make it drive better (I mean this XJ handles a gazillion times better than my wife's 2008 JKU ... tracs straighter, wanders less, is smoother, plusher ... just better ... period ... until I go to work ... and hit that one magic bump or series bumps blah, blah, blah).
but each time I make headway I'll put it here, until it's cured. I did come across one other guy who wrote about similar issues, his fix was adjustable Rancho's (it's not the shock that mattered but the ability to tune it on the go that matters) once he had the damping tuned to the spring rate the DW was gone. He noted the same progression of the wobble I did as well.
Sorry for this retardedly long winded one, but it's really and experience in skidmarks I suffer from here.
Do the WJ swap, replaced wheel Ball Joints, Unit Bearings, all new TRE's and DRE's (1-tons) the axle was rebuilt with the regear in September, literally the front end is new disk to disk. the only real change besides the whole WJ knuckle thing ... was the swap to the RE springs with the 164 lb/in rate. Been doing my homework on spring rates and dampening.
I can drive at any speed over normal roadways, but when i get into the really chopped up cracked roads (and I mean like 3" deep potholes, and whole dropped sections of pavement and the like) is when I have my "issues". If I just did normal city driving I'd never even know I had issues. It's only because i happen to work down one of the crappiest 148km sections of highway BC has to offer that I even found out I had the issue.
a major indication of improper dampening is ongoing wheel hop, usually associated with multiple bump hits at speed. I already have the stiffer springs so it's a route I'm going to try ... really what do I have to lose. Or I can likely go buy the shocks valved for these springs,
the problem is my springs aren't fighting anything, my shocks are valved for a stiffer spring rate. Matching them up may solve the issue if the the issue is wheel hop.
To be clear this isn't a vibration, isn't a shake, or a simple shimmy ...
this is a bump above a certain speed, that set off a chain reaction ... with the initial hit I get a shake in the front end, then just as you would expect a normal suspension to dampen the hit, mine goes into overdrive and it's is literally like it shifts a gear and goes apeshit. with everything I've done so far I've gone from standing on the brakes holding on for dear life while listening to my wheels squeal as my front end bounces off the road (yes, I hear it do so, chirp, chirp, chirp as I come to a stop) to now I just need to hold the brakes and whiles it's still bouncing there is no more side to side movement and the vehicle even tracs staright while bouncing. Even before there was very little side to side movement even in the steering wheel. From what I felt, the only side to side movement was due to the trac bar doing what it is supposed to and as it is a fixed length, going up will push the wheel one way and going back down will push it the other, simple as that. It was never the wobbling wheel of death type wobble but the pogo stick dance from hell more so.
There was far more movement in the wheel and axle when the tracbar was it's original 9" shorter than the drag link. But, now that it's completely parallel to, and only 3" shorter than the drag link, there is almost nothing felt as far as sidie to side turning movements. What I do feel is more just a vibration of the steering column associated to being attached to a front end gone cracktasticly insane.
If I were to remove the shocks, the spring will bounce uncontrollably until I stop, at ~70kph I get a series of bumps from a deep pothole quite similar to blown shocks. 4-6 bounces as it were. When going over a simple speed bump my front end is marshmellow soft and I a soft plush bump in the front and the typical jeep ride in the rear.
Before the WJ swap, with the stock steering stretched to it's limit, and all arms exactly the same as they are now but with slightly stiffer springs ... I got a bump pretty close to stock on the highway over potholes, and the 6 speedbumps in my Cul-de-sac (and that works out to one every 150' FYI). This is with the same Rancho shocks I first used after the WJ swap with the softer springs and initially with no SS mind you (it was added after my first trip to work when, after driving for 4 days without issue I finally hit the 'right' stretch of road).
I'll stop there ... It's just so frigging frustrating really ... even trying to research Death Wobble is misleading as a lot of out of balance tires, and worn u-joints, and driveshaft vibration get called DW when anyone who has actually experienced true DW knows it isn't. Hell I can deal with vibrations that's easy and simple by comparison to this. I mean I can drive 110kph down the highway trouble free for miles, and then there is that one special bump, or series of bumps and Blammo it all goes to hell. And then once I stop it's all cream pies and buttercups again until I hit that one magic bump or series of bumps ... and BLAMMO ... "holy hell I need new undies, dear god I forgot to tell the wife I love her, please don't let me die!" until I stop and then it's all roses and cupcakes until I hit ... you get the idea. Problem is there are no stretches of hellishness within 150kms of me to find out if I've fixed things. So, each shift home I make it drive better (I mean this XJ handles a gazillion times better than my wife's 2008 JKU ... tracs straighter, wanders less, is smoother, plusher ... just better ... period ... until I go to work ... and hit that one magic bump or series bumps blah, blah, blah).
but each time I make headway I'll put it here, until it's cured. I did come across one other guy who wrote about similar issues, his fix was adjustable Rancho's (it's not the shock that mattered but the ability to tune it on the go that matters) once he had the damping tuned to the spring rate the DW was gone. He noted the same progression of the wobble I did as well.
Sorry for this retardedly long winded one, but it's really and experience in skidmarks I suffer from here.
MaxxXJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Bakersfield CA
Just to add to your drive to work... Is your drive bumpy for a while? As of course it doesn't happen immediately as soon as you start that road, your shocks have to "heat up" first before that one bump sets it off...could it be possible that you've heated them up enough and your shocks foamed up and become basically useless? My buddy didnt expierence DW but we played on some back roads with lots of bumps and after a short trip his jeep became really tippy and shocks seemed worthless, maybe you're expierencing similar issues?
It's easier to diagnose in person than thru forum posts so I'm just grabbing at straws
It's easier to diagnose in person than thru forum posts so I'm just grabbing at straws
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
I used to think along a similar line, and shock fade may even be part of the issue ... but If I can manage to avoid the big bumps the Cherokee drive fine ... although I have gotten tired of the soft front end ride. I've begun to look forward to a stffer riding front end and in all honesty I'm really hoping I have the right solution with the 240 lb/in springs.
I hear you on the IT diagnoses ... I do my share and although I can get pretty close on some things ... many are just impossible. This, is more than likely going to be one of them ... but It'll be chronicalled and hopefully, when it is finally solved, will be there to help the next guy as well.
Thanks for everyones help, here's hoping my next time I post and update ... it will be the last.
I hear you on the IT diagnoses ... I do my share and although I can get pretty close on some things ... many are just impossible. This, is more than likely going to be one of them ... but It'll be chronicalled and hopefully, when it is finally solved, will be there to help the next guy as well.
Thanks for everyones help, here's hoping my next time I post and update ... it will be the last.
blenny
RRC President
- Location
- Surfside Beach, TX
I'm in exactly the same boat, just finished wj swap and DW occures at 55 after a bump and goes away when I slow to about 20. I just got it to highway speeds tonight so haven't had any diagnosis time yet. I figured track bad angle would contribute to DW and I know I need to lower my frame side mount about an inch. I have no noticeable bump steer, but I figured a bump in the road at this speed could cause bump steer leading to DW.
- Location
- Roanoke VA
I just had an episode of DW on my 90XJ. It stumped me because this Jeep was just restored 3 years ago and EVERYTHING in the front end is new!
I looked it all over good and the only thing I found was a sticking piston in the pass side brake caliper. That was it! it would lock down and cause the whole front end to go nuts but only if i hit a pot hole and the tire would start hopping from the impact. I was also getting a slight pull to the right, that has gone away with a new caliper as well.
I agree, 90% of the time its the track bar, 10% of the time its a LCA/UCA bushing.
Just don't overlook the simple things as well
I looked it all over good and the only thing I found was a sticking piston in the pass side brake caliper. That was it! it would lock down and cause the whole front end to go nuts but only if i hit a pot hole and the tire would start hopping from the impact. I was also getting a slight pull to the right, that has gone away with a new caliper as well.
I agree, 90% of the time its the track bar, 10% of the time its a LCA/UCA bushing.
Just don't overlook the simple things as well
rmonte4812
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Chandler AZ
Can bad ball joints be part of a DW problem? I've rebuilt all my control arms and track bar, still have problem. I put the front end up on jack stands lifting the tires only an inch of the ground then used a pry bar to lift the tires. There was about an 1/8 play up when I did that. Could that be cause of DW
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
Well, just swapped the springs over, found a UCA bushing that was loose (looks like the center spacer seperated from the rubber) and a broken sway bar mount stud (axle end). these are new issues and a result of the DW. Last trip it had collapsed the UCA pass mount some and shifted the lower (hence all the bracing).
Once I get it repaired and back together I'll take test drive and report back.
Taking the time to replace and repair a few other items along the way.
Once I get it repaired and back together I'll take test drive and report back.
Taking the time to replace and repair a few other items along the way.
2001XJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Canton, MI
Actually, having the body end of the track bar mounted like that adds additional length. Isn't that desired? You want the track bar as long as possible don't you? Seems like thats a good thing.
Boostwerks.com
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Colorado
It can for sure. There should be no play.
Devilfrog
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Duncan, BC
that was my understanding of it as well, and now the angle match perfectly as well as the axle side was redrilled to re-align it. I have also noticed all but no bump steer, so I'm happy there.
When I get teh HP30 done we are going to move the springs back and move the axle end over ... and either redrill this bracket or swap in the Rusty's bracket. But I need to get the axle re-geared first
