Death wobble despite trying (almost) all solutions

I get the DW when tires are worn out. I am on my third set of tires and it is always an indicator when they need to be changed.

In my case the DW appears when I get around the 40K mark on the set of tires.

HTH

Boris
 
I get the DW when tires are worn out. I am on my third set of tires and it is always an indicator when they need to be changed.
In my case the DW appears when I get around the 40K mark on the set of tires.
HTH
Boris


Thanks for the thought, Boris. But count yourself lucky. For the benefit of others who may be following this thread, I ought to say (for the record) that this is not the problem, or the solution, with my DW. I'm sure it's true that worn tyres, especially if out-of-balance, can cause a "wobble". You might notice this and find it worrying. But as many Jeep owners know, the really horrible change-your-trousers-DW-from-hell is so severe that it is another league altogether.

Also, I'm on my third set of tyres, all standard size. The first were the OEM Goodyear Wranglers. The second were Toyos. The current set - which are not worn out, and have just been re-balanced - are Michelin Synchros.

Just to check the tyre issue, I changed the front ones and put on spare Toyos that I still had. Made no difference: the DW still struck, and still tried to shake the axle off the chassis and my arms out of their shoulder sockets.
 
Thanks for the thought, Boris. But count yourself lucky. For the benefit of others who may be following this thread, I ought to say (for the record) that this is not the problem, or the solution, with my DW. I'm sure it's true that worn tyres, especially if out-of-balance, can cause a "wobble". You might notice this and find it worrying. But as many Jeep owners know, the really horrible change-your-trousers-DW-from-hell is so severe that it is another league altogether.

Also, I'm on my third set of tyres, all standard size. The first were the OEM Goodyear Wranglers. The second were Toyos. The current set - which are not worn out, and have just been re-balanced - are Michelin Synchros.

Just to check the tyre issue, I changed the front ones and put on spare Toyos that I still had. Made no difference: the DW still struck, and still tried to shake the axle off the chassis and my arms out of their shoulder sockets.


I feel your pain. I feel your pain.

My story:
I have a heavily Modified 96 XJ.
I have owned it since 2004, and I lifted it in 2004 with 73k miles on it. Most of the modifications were done then.

Now with 150k miles on it I had a bad wheel bearing for inspection (this is my fourth bad wheel bearing in the past 7 Years because of large tires)

The only difference is this time...

once the wheel bearing was replaced. I have had death wobble.
so. Not one to stand by and scratch my head. I went right to work.
Looking at some of the old lift parts I found some slight wear in the bushings of the control arms. so..
This is what I replaced, (and I'm sure you can see the $ signs stacking up or ₤'s in the uk right?)

JKS upper control arms
JKS lower control arms.
TNT Heavy-duty track bar
JCR 1-ton Heavy Duty Steering (UTK)
JKS sway bar links.
Replaced the front 5.5" RE springs
UCA axle bushings.
Re-enforced axle mounts

Then I did the tires to the back swap to see if it helped.
Took the front drive shaft out to try to reduce drag on the front tires (WAG)...
adjusted caster to 0deg
adjusted caster to 4deg
adjusted caster to 7deg
adjusted caster to 9deg
Then went to negative caster -1, -4, -7... (fyi, it gets worse when its negative...and there is no return to center.lol)

adjusted air pressure in tires.

adjusted toe in to 0
adjusted toe in to 1/8"


Now I am sitting here with basically brand new front suspension.. and death wobble.
(the ball joints were replaced on mine in late 2006 and still appear tight, but I'm not ruling them out just yet.)

Tomorrow I am going to put some new shocks on the front.
and Mount a steering stabilizer (I have not run a stabilizer since 2006..)

Something is amis... and its IMPOSSIBLE to find.

HOWEVER get this...

one other weird symptom. Just sporadically, when turning right on full lock, there is a nasty recurrent noise from somewhere down on the LH front. More a crunch than a click: I can almost feel it through the soles of my feet. If the UJ hadn't been replaced, I would suspect it, but then again, a UJ makes a clicking sound all the time on full lock if it is bad. This noise only occurs some of the time. And I can't make it happen in the workshop when wiggling/turning the wheels or the steering on the ramp. So where might this noise be coming from?
I have that... I can't find it.. but I have that... same thing word for word..
 
I've been following and contributing to this thread since the beginning, and the one problem the OP had (IMHO) were the urethane control arm bushings. I had a complete set in my '92 for about five years, and went through hell trying to figure out what was going on. I replaced them with adjustable (down to stock length) RE control arms. It felt different, but not totally cured. Two years ago, new stockers were installed, along with replacing the Kevin's track bar with a stocker, and now it's happy! Monroe SensaTrac shocks, OME stabilizer, and stock arms from Q-tec. I wish it were this nice for the twelve years I've owned it!

That being said, a peculiar problem I've had in the past, and now again with my '96, is slightly (or not so slightly) out-of-round tires. I have a set of Firestone Firehawk 500 tires (I know, car tires!), but when they were on the '96, it rode like velvet. Now they're on the '92, and I believe they are part of the reason it behaves so nice now. Currently I have Cooper Discoverer ATRs on the '96 (great snow tires), and even after balancing at a few different places-including a Hunter Road-Force balance, there are two that are not happy on the front! I've jacked up the rear, and gently spun them with the engine, and the out of round is visible. With the two questionable tires on the front, right at about 60 MPH, it felt ready to break into DW. Now, it's OK, but I can feel the left rear starting to act up at about 60. You can balance an egg, but...

Now, to really muddy the water, a friend recently put 2" pucks on his '06 TJ (LJ?) Unlimited, with very low miles, and got bad DW. It was properly aligned, but I found a very sloppy axle-end track bar bushing. I've never seen that go bad, usually the ball end. Turns out that even a small 2" lift tugged the axle to the left, throwing the geometry off. I installed an adjustable track bar, and now it's happy!

I'm staying tuned to this thread, as I'm curious about just how much more there is to learn on this subject.
 
I feel your pain. I feel your pain.

My story:
I have a heavily Modified 96 XJ.
I have owned it since 2004, and I lifted it in 2004 with 73k miles on it. Most of the modifications were done then.

Now with 150k miles on it I had a bad wheel bearing for inspection (this is my fourth bad wheel bearing in the past 7 Years because of large tires)

The only difference is this time...

once the wheel bearing was replaced. I have had death wobble.
so. Not one to stand by and scratch my head. I went right to work.
Looking at some of the old lift parts I found some slight wear in the bushings of the control arms. so..
This is what I replaced, (and I'm sure you can see the $ signs stacking up or ₤'s in the uk right?)

JKS upper control arms
JKS lower control arms.
TNT Heavy-duty track bar
JCR 1-ton Heavy Duty Steering (UTK)
JKS sway bar links.
Replaced the front 5.5" RE springs
UCA axle bushings.
Re-enforced axle mounts

Then I did the tires to the back swap to see if it helped.
Took the front drive shaft out to try to reduce drag on the front tires (WAG)...
adjusted caster to 0deg
adjusted caster to 4deg
adjusted caster to 7deg
adjusted caster to 9deg
Then went to negative caster -1, -4, -7... (fyi, it gets worse when its negative...and there is no return to center.lol)

adjusted air pressure in tires.

adjusted toe in to 0
adjusted toe in to 1/8"


Now I am sitting here with basically brand new front suspension.. and death wobble.
(the ball joints were replaced on mine in late 2006 and still appear tight, but I'm not ruling them out just yet.)

Tomorrow I am going to put some new shocks on the front.
and Mount a steering stabilizer (I have not run a stabilizer since 2006..)

Something is amis... and its IMPOSSIBLE to find.

HOWEVER get this...

I have that... I can't find it.. but I have that... same thing word for word..


My vote would be the ball end of the track bar, either the ball-joint itself, the mounting nut on the ball-stud coming loose, or the mount flexing or slopping around on the 'frame'. Time to get an assistant to saw the wheel back and forth, and watch and hold everything, looking and feeling for clunks.
 
My vote would be the ball end of the track bar, either the ball-joint itself, the mounting nut on the ball-stud coming loose, or the mount flexing or slopping around on the 'frame'. Time to get an assistant to saw the wheel back and forth, and watch and hold everything, looking and feeling for clunks.

TNT Heavy-duty track bar
There is no "ball end".. its a completely replaced track bar and bracket
and on the axle side I welded a re-enforced plate over the stock mounting place and replaced the stock bolt and nut with a grade 8 bolt and lock nut with a lock washer.

There is no play in my steering or track bar. I've had three different people play 'assistant looking for clunks with me'

but none the less I am doing it again tomorrow.. feel free to swing in!:spin1:
 
You're ruining all of my easy choices! What kind of bushings in the track bar? I was back and forth with Kevin and Daystar a few years ago, and came up with the conclusion that sometimes, harder is not always better. The energy needs to be absorbed and dissipated in a certain fashion, or the whole deal will resonate, like the ringing of a bell. Too much ring, and it sounds like DW.....a horrible tune.
 
feel free to swing in!:spin1:

You missed your chance-My son and I came down to Pottstown last Monday, to Eastwood. I'll be replacing the rockers on my '96, and I've been itching to try some of their rust treatment and prevention chemicals. This will be the third of our four XJs to get new rockers, and I don't want to do it again anytime soon!
 
You're ruining all of my easy choices! What kind of bushings in the track bar? I was back and forth with Kevin and Daystar a few years ago, and came up with the conclusion that sometimes, harder is not always better. The energy needs to be absorbed and dissipated in a certain fashion, or the whole deal will resonate, like the ringing of a bell. Too much ring, and it sounds like DW.....a horrible tune.

yeah I've heard that too. I did a brief stint with some SkyJacker control arms that had poly bushings in them, but switched to the JKS for the stock bushing feel.
The Track bar has a Rubber stock sized bushing in the axle end, just like the stock track bar. and on the frame size it has a double sheer connection to a RE-superflex style teflon encased joint.

And yeah the easy stuff is Disappearing quickly..after the shocks tomorrow I'm going to be out of things to replace. :dunno:

You missed your chance-My son and I came down to Pottstown last Monday, to Eastwood. I'll be replacing the rockers on my '96, and I've been itching to try some of their rust treatment and prevention chemicals. This will be the third of our four XJs to get new rockers, and I don't want to do it again anytime soon!

I am in the middle of a rocker replacement on my '99 too! I have the fast etch(which I put a spray nozzle on for those tight places..) from Eastwood and the encapsulator both are really great to work with, but we will see how they hold up after a couple years of PA use!
 
I heard PennDOT is supposed to stop spraying the roads with the Magnesium Chloride solution prior to a plowable snowfall because it's corroding THEIR equipment! Makes me feel good to pay tax to ruin MY stuff...
 
So,

Swapped out the SkyJacker Nitro 8000 shocks, with some used Hyrdo 7000 shocks...
and I couldn't get it to wobble.

added a Rusty's steering stabilizer for good measure...

and I've been DW free since then. Which is really strange because the shocks did not feel bad, and I've been without a stabilizer for.. 4 years...

but this is all a surprise for me, I honestly didn't expect the shocks to fix it... So at least for now the 'band-aide' seems to have closed the wound...
 
Re: Death wobble - now I'm going to change bushings again...

OK, next question for heyhar or anyone else to comment on. I iunderstand that getting complete replacement arms has a certain logic. But over here, replacing all the control arms (upper and lower) with their OEM rubber bushings included, is a huge cost, whether from the dealer or by ordering from a US supplier like Rock or Quadratec (because of the cost of freighting such bulky, heavy, items to UK).

I know this is from a while ago, but I can answer this one:

The fact that OEM control arms with bushings are exceedingly inexpensive is the major factor in why most folks running stock arms just swap them out as a unit, since it's more work to pull and press in new bushings than to just bolt in a brand-new arm.

That said, there's another reason that I can attest to - many years ago I came due for new control arm bushings. Due to the convenience factor, I took it to the Jeep dealer next door to where I worked at the time for an oil change, and they found the worn bushings. They advised changing the arms themselves too because the holes in the arms where the bushings go were, to use their exact words, "egged out" and that putting new bushings into them would just be a waste of time and good bushings. At the time, my Jeep was bone-stock and had never been off-roaded.

Since the OEM arms are just thin sheet metal, as the bushings themselves wear out they start letting more vibration and stress through to the arms and start wearing the holes. It's possible that the bushing holes in your arms might be wallowed out a bit, and that could be where the DW is getting started.

I know you said that OEM arms are big $$$ to acquire over there. Allow me to propose an alternate solution: Many 4x4 shops over here tend to have a pile of "takeoff" control arms from folks who are upgrading their jeeps with aftermarket parts. I've taken advantage of this myself - the last set of OEM lowers I ran on my XJ were takeoffs from a TJ whose owner had driven straight ther from the showroom floor and proceeded to drop something like $15K to replace everything below the frame rails and above the pavement. Rather than order brand-new ones, the shop sold me the two LCAs from that truck (which had maybe 50 miles on them) for about $20-25 bucks. I got essentially new lower arms for cheaper than new, and the shop got some "surplus parts" out of their storage bins. Win-Win!

The UK must have shops that install aftermarket control arms on TJs and XJs - see if one of them has a set of low-mileage takeoffs that they'd be willing to let go of at a less-than-dealer price.

If nothing else, take a really good look at all of your arms to make sure none of the bushing holes are wallowed out.

Rob
 
Re: Death wobble - perhaps we blame polyurethane bushngs?

Yes, most definitely!! The sway bar bushings and link bushings, tie rod boots, etc. are just fine-mine are still in, squeaking like crazy. But, and I'd be willing to bet a pint at your favorite pub, that it's the control arm bushings causing your heartburn. You mentioned going to the dealer-They're going to clean you out. Check out Quadratec or any one of a number of aftermarket sources for these types of items. We've got Crown control arms, from Qtec, in all four of our XJs, and they're just fine, at a fraction of what the dealer wants for them. I'll bet that even with overseas shipping, the cost is still less than a dealer. Don't do just the bushings, buy the complete control arms. The cost of the bushings alone is comparable to the complete arms. The only separate bushings will be the front uppers, at the axle end.

Now you see what I went through when we had an MGB back in the seventies.....

Well, for dedicated readers of this thread - and I see we are up to post #93 and 7 pages now - here is some more news from the OP.

The news is..... heyhar was RIGHT!

Now I'm not going to claim that the outcome of my long and tedious saga provides a guaranteed solution for all the others who have chipped in with their DW stories. I think it's still true that various or multiple different things can cause DW. But here is what might be the concluding chapter in my story.

Just to recap the key facts:

  • my XJ is 1993, stock, no lifts or other mods, done 130k miles and has not been heavily hammered off-road. DW appeared about a year ago;
  • I replaced the front shocks with Ranchos (one old shock was very tired), and replaced all the original front bushings with a polyurethane Daystar kit. DW was no better, indeed as I look back, I think it was worse.
  • I replaced the UJs. In fact one was new, and the other needed changing as it had started clicking. DW still a problem.
  • replaced the sway bar links. DW still a problem.
  • re-checked the tyres - tried various pressures, rebalanced them, and swapped them around. Made no difference to DW.
  • Prompted by advice on this forum, I took a deep breath and changed the trackbar, and the steering damper. Fortunately I got an original new LHD trackbar from a UK supplier who happened to have one and sold it cheap as there's no call for the LHD part on UK vehicles! We found the old trackbar and mounting were fine (no ovalling of the bracket-hole), and the steering damper was reasonably OK, but we changed them anyway. This did not cure the DW.
  • Just to be sure, I then had the alignment checked on a Hunter machine. It was spot-on.
  • We searched for any clue as to what else might be loose or worn. There was the tiniest bit of play in one of the two tie-rod ends on the steering rod (part no 5200 5741, for those who have the parts manual). We replaced it. Made no difference to the DW.
So that seemed to exhaust the list of possible causes of the problem. Driven to despair, I started browsing around for sets of control arms (CAs) with the bushes pre-fitted. I found a UK supplier of new Crown OEM-equivalents who was charging a reasonable price, so I took the plunge and bought a set. Lower CAs had both bushings fitted, Upper CAs had the rear bushing in place, and I got the (separate) front upper bushings.

We changed out all four control arms - with the Daystar poly bushings - last week. The original CAs (to answer Rob Mayercik's recent post) were sound and solid - no wallowed out holes. So my Jeep now has four new CAs with new OEM-equivalent Crown rubber bushings at each end.

And ....... Hallelujah!.... the DW is GONE! I have tried repeatedly to provoke the DW at a variety of speeds and locations with bumps and pot-holes, where I could previously guarantee to get the front end to shake and give myself a serious fright. Not a flicker, not a wobble. The Jeep tracks straight and true. I feel the pothole or bump momentarily through the steering wheel, but the vehicle remains reassuringly stable.

So as I said .... heyhar was right. Those pesky Daystar bushings seem to have been the cause in my case. There was some wobble before I started replacing parts - but the original wobble was, I now think, mainly due to the worn-out shock absorber and, probably, the rather tired original rubber bushings. Fitting the harder poly bushings certainly gave a noticeably harder ride anyway (which I didn't mind too much). But those bushings - especially in the control arms - clearly resulted in the entire suspension and steering set-up being unable to absorb the oscillation caused by hitting an uneven road surface at a particular speed. Hence the DW. The bushings were perhaps simply too hard and insufficiently compliant.

So that is - I hope - the end of my DW woes. Obviously it isn't a universal explanation or cure. But the evidence seems to me pretty conclusive that the poly bushings were to blame in my case. So credit to heyhar for his accurate and consistent advice. Thanks to all who contributed thoughts and comments to this thread. I'm grateful to the NAXJA forum for providing a platform for discussion. And good luck to all who may suffer, now or in the future, from the dreaded DW. I hope this thread will contribute in some way to helping others to analyse, track down, and solve, their DW problems.
 
Not needing any credit but I told you to replace the LCA's with stock way back on post 93. Didn't listen to me! :anon: Had to wait for the other guy:laugh:
 
Not needing any credit but I told you to replace the LCA's with stock way back on post 93. Didn't listen to me! :anon: Had to wait for the other guy:laugh:
Ooops! Post 58 sorry :)
 
Fair call, asatxj - your post at #58 did recommend changing LCAs, so thanks and creidit to you too, and also one or two others who pointed the finger at the control arm bushings (though at least one suggested that changing TO polyurethane solved the problem!).

But heyhar deserves special mention for hanging in there throughout the debate and for pointing out why the red poly bushings might be to blame. I found it hard to accept that new bushings might have made things worse, but heyhar reckoned - I think correctly - that because they are harder and less resilient they were transmitting and probably amplifying the oscillation to the chassis.

So thanks to all. I'm just relieved that the DW has stopped. But guess what - I've now discovered another problem: a little leak from the fuel tank (so I'm back on the Search button again). I fear my Jeep, like its owner, is increasingly showing the signs of old age....!
 
Ha, I was just having fun with you. BTW I have a spare tank. Too bad you're across the pond. I'm going to have to throw it away later this summer when I have to move.
 
Well, I'm glad that you came to a good conclusion! The Urethane bushings seemed like a good idea, and for a rarely driven, mostly off-road vehicle, they are probably useful. But, daily driving on less-than-perfect roads is not the best use for the little red buggers. Like I said earlier, the handling they offered was amazing! No more of the usual Jeep wander. Point the wheel, and that's where you'll go. Just don't hit a bump! Somehow, there's got to be an acceptable compromise, and I hope I find it before I get tired of this game.

Now, if I could find a sure-fire prevention and cure for rust...

Anyway, I'm glad to have been of some help....Ray.
 
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