D44 with Ford radius arms

[shizza-my-nizza]

I have been thinking about getting a D44 for the front and was thinking that it would probably be easier to find one from a Ford with radius arms. That way all I have to do is make a crossmember for the arms to mount on and some other details like a trackbar mount and a QD mounts. Am I thinking correctly here or is it as much of a hassle as putting OEM style bracketry on a 44? What year trucks should I look for? Did any radius arm 44's have reverse rotation center sections? Are there any of these 44's that would not have to be narrowed or are only slightly wider than an XJ D30? Any help you guys can offer will be greatly appreciated. TIA, Eric

 

[roXJeepr]

I'm doing a RC44 project with radius arms right now. I don't know of any that are the same width as XJ AND reverse cut. The early Broncos are the right width, but not RC. I got mine from a 73 F150, just the housing. Then I got an '80 Wagoneer D44 for the shafts and outer stuff. The waggy 44 is real close to XJ D30 width but is std rotation. I think it's safe to say that you're either gonna have to narrow or go std rotation.

 

[Safari Ary]

How far off is the width of the Ford mounts on the late '70s reverse cut housings?? I'm planning an MJ buildup that would involve leaving the axles full-width, and I'd like to utilize the Ford radius arms if possible. Thanks

Ary

P.S. Shizza, I believe the 78-79 F-250s were the ones that were hi pinion with radius are mounts, but I could be off, that's pulling on info from my memory from 6 months ago.

 

[rockwerks]

Im in the process right now.....and of course farmermatt has it done on his

I am using a 79 f150 RC 44 and having it narrowed to grand wagoneer size..whould have it back on tuesday...using GW brakes and hubs, lockouts, etc. I am also modifying teh bushing end of the radius arm to accept a johnny joint from RE...cut off existing threads....cut new 3/4 16 threads on bushing area weld johnny joint to 1 1/4" dom and weld in 4130 threaded inserts from spider trax......this will give me unlimited droop without any binding

 

[TOZOVR]

Guy in Mass Mudders, Avery Runs the setup you speak of...sick sick sick

 

[Cresso]

this will give me unlimited droop without any binding

at the frame end, anyway. You'll need to look into some kind of wristed arm setup to eliminate the bind at the axle end in order to see your full articulation potential.

 

[rockwerks]

using teh stock arms and urethane bushings...with the RE johnny joint we get around 36" before any front bind.......the twisting action of the johnny joint makes up for the rigid front mount pretty well...at least as far as any shock I can mount on it!....I did also just pick up a set of fox coil overs 31" extended and 19" compressed...with 6.5" of lift they should be a near perfect fit...we will hopefully have around 24 to 28 inches of droop

 

[Cresso]

hmmm, very interesting. There's no way the johnny joint can make up for anything at the axle end - the axle end binds and the only thing that can relieve it is a fix at the axle end. Yet obviously, you're getting flex. Something must be bending. In the stock setup, the rubber bushings give the axle the slop it needs to articulate. I'm curious what deforms on yours to achieve that much. Urethane bushings should twist less than the stock rubber bushings. Got any pictures with the axle articulated?

 

[shizza-my-nizza]

Thanks for the ideas. How did FarmerMatt make his front? From pictures I have seen it looks sweet.

 

[rockwerks]

not yet...jut playing fround with it...and still making the final frame end mounts....the johnny joint has zero bind up and down it rotates on the axis of the ball without shocks and springs the axle would pendulem about 150*in other words eh axle could hang straight douwn under the JJ's.........and and by adding a misalignment spacer on the sides of the JJ we can get around another 10* for a total of aroudn 30* of mis alignment by spreading teh bracket wider....this twisting action will let the axle droop without bind...the axle end could be welded solid and still be able to articulate..not as much but still will....and If I dont use a jam nut on the JJ frame end it will be able to twist @ the threads also...we have done the geometry....and tests...now comes the true test assembly this next week...I will post pics of the progress as we proceed...will be picing up the axle from the narrowing in PHX on Tuesday...I mean hey thats why we are here aint it to play!.....the JJ's and threaded inserts will be here tuesday also..I hope.

 

[Cresso]

The frame end has no effect on the bind at the axle end. Sure, the whole axle can drop straight down with no bind, but you have massive bind at the axle end when it's articulated (to make sure we're on the same page, I've been using "articulated" to mean when one side is down and the other side is up). There's more going on than just bind at the stock bushing and angle of the articulated axle. The axle is also trying to twist along its length. Because the radius arms are effectively a four-link setup with coinciding frame mounts, you end up with an axle that's trying to travel in an arc whenever the suspension moves. When the two sides are at different positions in the arc, the radius arms fight one another to twist the axle. Hard to explain. There are a couple solutions that I've seen. Wristed radius arms (which bronco guys have been using for years. also see rockkrawler's setup - this is a wristed radius arm configuration) and the new rotating axle housing from bc broncos (www.bcbroncos.com and go to the front suspension section). Longer radius arms don't reduce the bind, but they decrease the difference in the arc of the circle by increasing the radius of the circle for the same amount of flex.

I know I may not be explaining this very well. Suffice it to say that your system may work very well, but unless you alleviate the bind at the axle, you are potentially capable of even more articulation.

 

[rockwerks]

I have built many modified suspension systems...race buggys, low riders, race trucks etc....and yes the frame end can allow for the axle end....... the wristed arm set up is basicly what I will have........just a real short arm on the frame end...about 6" in length........so the entire arm pivots with the axle...as it droops the JJ twists with the axle to 30*...and if needed the short arm can pivot also....and since both sides move in the same arc..just different lengths.....the axle side could be welded and it will still articulate......just for kicks a few months ago we took the bushing side of my RE arms and sandwiched in washers the size ot the bushings and tightened up teh bolts so teh rubber could not move...and it did not affect droop on teh XJ because of the JJ on the other end....the JJ let the entire arm articulate with the axle...by the way the ford guys have never tried this......granted having it pivot @ the axle would give me a little more droop..but I could not use it anyway.....could not get shocks on teh rig long enough.

 

[Cresso]

The JJs cannot relieve the axle bind in any way. The only bind they relieve is the amount the radius arm can swing away from ride height. The stock setup has no bind as the radius arm tries to twist, so there's no gain in going to a JJ in that regard. Ford guys have used JJs in the past - this is nothing new. In fact, there are several other methods for alleviating the bind at the frame end other than JJs that have several more desirable traits (less prone to failure, less maintenance required, much lower cost). High misalignment heims and multi-axis hinge setups come to mind.

Unfortunately, the axle bind is still there. This is not the bind you see at the frame end for the change in angle of the axle relative to the frame, this is the bind seen only at the axle end for the change in position from one end of the axle to the other. To help illustrate this difference, I'll see if I can dig up some pictures.

I do have a quick experiment that may help, though. Take a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels. Hold it in front of you with both arms fully outstretched and with one hand at each end. Now pull one arm down a little, sorta like an axle articulating. Make sure your arms and wrists are locked. I guarantee one of three things will happen: 1) your grip on the tube will be loose enough that one end will spin underneath your hand, 2) your grip will by tight enough and the cardboard itself will deform, or 3) you will let your wrist rotate a little bit to compensate without realizing it. This twisting effect along the length of the cardboard tube (and, more specifically, the cardboard's resistance to twist) is the bind of which I speak.

 

[rockwerks]

I know exactly what you are saying....and you are right...but even with teh truly wristed arms the difference is ony 20% and the broncos I have seen on before and after shots of wristed arm is about 3" to 4"...I believe with the stock raduis arm setup and my little improvements it will still flex with the with the best of the XJ's...and if not...it will only take a few hours to modify the passenger side radius arm to wristed....

 

[rockwerks]

you know there is very little difference between the ford radius arms and most of the new three link XJ and ZJ long arm kits......neither lets the axle roll like a four link...
they all have one long lower arm that is solid that runs from frame to axle and mounted to that arm is the short upper (torque} arm....making it a rigid radius arm...the articulation comes strictly from the joints...on the ends not the arms themselves...clayton even calls his a radius arm 3 link for the XJ
.claytons

..
..rusty's

 

[88justin]

anyone thought of using one torque arm on one long arm and on the other using a stiff dampener that would "control" the axle. this would relieve some stress from the single torque arm, but still allow some rotation of the axle housing to eliminate binding.

i was thinking that a dampener with 1-2" of travel and a high force capacity could give a better ride on road when combined with a single torque arm. the trick setup could have a shut-off so that on road it could be locked in a fixed position, but off road, it could change length.

whadayathink?

 

[Cresso]

Even a stiff dampener would do little under that amount of torque. There have been wristed arm setups with hydraulic cylinders to do what you suggested and they worked to various degrees. Unfortunately, it's quite a lot of hassle. A lot of people make the arm so you can pin it for the street, much like a swaybar disconnect. This works pretty well and is dirt cheap to do.

xjnation, yea those setups are definitely radius arms. No doubt about it. In fact, several of their setups look very similar to the radius arms I'm using. Here's the best picture I have:

That's a rear steering axle, but the same setup was on the front. Some may recognize these as the now defunct HiTech Redneck Twister arms. What I'm still trying to figure out is how those longarm kits attain as much flex as they do without wristing one side. Obviously there is deflection in the bushings or something along those lines. The kit Rockkrawler sells is a wristed radius arm setup and I've never seen any other off-the-shelf kit for an XJ flex as much, so that seems to confirm the theory that the long arm kits have more to offer. Unfortunately, RK stuff is really poorly executed which kinda gives the setup a bad name. Too many failures. At any rate, I'd still love to see pictures of yours. I'm still struggling to understand why non-wristed setups flex as well as they do. Thanks!

 

[shizza-my-nizza]

I am surprised that my questions started this much discussion. Every bit of info helps. Hey FarmerMatt If you are reading any of this could you chime in with any thoughts or ideas for me? Some flex pictures and some pictures of all the axle bracketry and your crossmember would be helpfull too. Thanks, Eric

 

[rockwerks]

This is why we are here....discussions like this bring forth ideas that further our sport....gotta love it dont cha!

 

[FarmerMatt]

I'll post a link to the write up I did here on . Cresso has it right that the joint at the cross member doesn't relieve the bind at the axle. With the longer radius arms the & ford "C" bushings the bind is a non issue. In fact I went from stock rubber bushings to poly to stiffen the front end some because the front was to loose. This helped balace the front suspension with the rear so they work together rather than the rear having all control over the rig & body position. Here's the link & some pics. After the article was written I redid the mounts at the cross member so they sit flush. The steering is also different. The front shocks are 9012 ranchos that yeild close to 14" of travel. I use all of it.

Matt

http://www.naxja.org/html/techarticles/ebswap.html