Beezil is wrong!

[Ed A. Stevens]

Folks just aren't cut out to be stacked vertically. Nor were they meant to be alone. Wierd and terrible things happen when humans are crowded or isolated.

True words. Density creates tension, and tension tends to make humans violent.

The concept of stacking all humanity vertically, and isolating them from the rest of the natural world is exactly what the radical greens want to do with the Wildlands Project. This concept was the topic of a mid-60's science fiction story and the aging Earth First! leadership (now in positions of power in the EII, SC, TNC & NRDC) want to see it happen before they die. They want 50% or more of the land locked up, to the exclusion of mankind, and house the displaced in citys.

What does this have to do with Eagle? If you are going to move to the sticks you better make the land purchase now , before these radicals have the DOI & USDA purchase and lock it all up with tax dollars.

P.S. don't move the Ca, we have too many out-of-state'rs already (bringing their laws and ideas).

You need to think past the sorrow, and demand media recognition of the innocent lives taken each and every day in this country. Nothing will change unless we as a nation recognize the problems we have with violence, and the motives for violence (drugs, poverty, bigitory, unacceptance of cultural diversity, selfishness).

We hear complaints about the "innocent lives" taken in Iraq due to the recent military action (a few during the action, and one or two a day in the current police action) although we hear nothing about the tens of innocent killed each day in this nation. Why not?

Where is Senator Byrd chanting "this is wrong!" in reguard to the murder of innocents murdered in his constituancy? Where are the television cameras and journalists?

Why do reports and claims of a few hundred lost lives in Iraq (in the last few months, where the label of innocent is questionable) receive comment on the floors of Congress, and leading story attention on National Media ... and a few thousand proven innocent USA citizen lives lost in this country (in the same few months) receive no similar recognition in Congress or the Media?

We can keep saying it's the nut cases elsewhere (the cults, the dealers in the citys, those trapped in the burbs, etc.), and we can keep fooling ourselves into a state of ignorant bliss by letting the media redirect the focus on this problem to other issues.

I am tired of hearing "it is wrong !!!": to lower taxes, to wage war in other countries, to keep terrorists detained without charges, to detain drug dealers in "victumless crimes" ... and not one word that "it is wrong!!!", to ignore the murder of innocent people in our own cities.

I'll step down and yield the :soapbox: floor to the honorable gentlemen from the East coast.

 

[Markm80521]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Beezil is wrong!

Texas.....Wyoming, Montana or Idaho... same difference

Our, AMERICA's, problem is actually national, it just seems to be concentrated in some areas. Ivan here actually has provided us with a great example. It's called IGNORANCE. Unfortunately it is taught and I believe cannot be UN-taught. Only quality parents that understand the responsibility of being a perent and quality teachers that understand teaching can do this. We have a long way to go yet.

 

[Ivan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beezil is wrong!

Our, AMERICA's, problem is actually national, it just seems to be concentrated in some areas. Ivan here actually has provided us with a great example. It's called IGNORANCE. Unfortunately it is taught and I believe cannot be UN-taught. Only quality parents that understand the responsibility of being a perent and quality teachers that understand teaching can do this. We have a long way to go yet.

Ok... You just validated your own point of ignorance as well. Eagles post was one of concern of big city environments, of societal decay, and moving away to remote areas like Wyoming and such to supposively be free of it. If you read my initial post, it was some light hearted banter that no matter where you move to, sh*t happens. You could live in a city of 3 million people and get aced, or just as easily live in a town of 300 with one crackhead to make it worth his while to ace you for the change in your pockets. So, where exactly are societal problems concentrated? I was corrected (thanks Fergie ) about the Branch/Davidian thing occuring in Texas.....my bad. I just tossed back some playful inter-state rivalry banter....as an off the cuff remark.

You seem to think that only good parents and teachers will mold youth into pillars of society. Here's a relavation for you....Parents and teachers can only do so much for an individual. Ultimately it's that individual's choice of what path in life to take. Case in point on my own experience. Both my sons were raised in the exact same enviroment and conditions....affluent upper class. Both were give the same exact opporunities in life, upbringing, religion, educational options, etc. One CHOSE a not so good path in life (though he's straightened out somewhat is is now out of trouble, thank God), while the other CHOSE path of success that would make any parent proud. I can sleep peacefully at night knowing that I did the best I could as a parent for BOTH my sons, despite how they each turned out.

So Buckwheat, I do take offense to being construde as "ignorant" by you, and that that ignorance was passed on to me by my parents, teachers and general upbringing.... and your post implies it as such. You don't know me from squat. You don't know what type of parent I am. You don't even know if I hear voices in my head telling me to clean my guns today, while I swat away at the bats flying around my head. So, until you and I sit down to have a beer to discuss philosophical beliefs and get to know one another; keep your characterizations of your preceived ignorance of me to yourself....

 

[Glenn B]

Here Here Ivan! Very well said, and directly spot on IMHO.
Glenn

 

[Markm80521]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beezil is wrong!

Ok... You just validated your own point of ignorance as well.

~EDIT~

So, until you and I sit down to have a beer to discuss philosophical beliefs and get to know one another; keep your characterizations of your preceived ignorance of me to yourself....

OK - So I owe an apology to Ivan. You are absolutely correct that my post was born out of my own ignorance. My Post did not come off the way it should have as I did not mean it as a personal attack against Ivan. I refered to the comment itself. It is always difficult to explain through text. I am a little sensitive to the nature of this topic only because I have been through what Eagles describes first hand. Born and raised in downtown Atlanta, 3 friends shot dead, one from their own hand. Another two overdose on drugs. I am not from an upper class, affluent neighborhood, I don't think money has anything to do with it. Two of my high school teachers were known coke addicts/dealors. Thank god for my parents!

I sound much like your son. I too found trouble and how easy it was to be involved. Without a strong parental unit I would not be here today so don't sell yourself short on that. It's because of you your son pulled through. I did leave Atlanta, after paying my way through school, and to be quite honest have never felt the same threats, tension, everyday stress that I did growing up. Understanding is what I try and preach and, as we have just witnessed via my lack of proper wordsmithing, I could stand to practice a little more.

With that I apologize Ivan, hope you accept it, and if you feel like chin-waggin' over a beer sometime I'm all for it. By the way, I live in Colorado now up near Wyoming. :cheers:

 

[Ivan]

Mark...

No problem, and thanks for stepping up... I over reacted as well on my soapbox. Hopefully, you'll make it to Moab in October where we can share some beers over a campfire

:cheers:

Ivan

 

[ryurabbit]

THATS WHAT ITS ABOUT!

I think if you read back through this post, you can get a feel for
the kind of people here on . We all have our own opinions that stem from our experiences. They shape our attitudes and perceptions in positive and negative ways. I have lived in ghettos in big citys and in small towns. They are different but alot alike. It took getting away from them all together to change my perception enough to know that there were options besides gangs and crime. Living through experiences is what makes us....well us! Its great that we can all let our feelings loose and then recind some things siad in anger or frustration. The fact that we can still be friends afterwards is a testament to the human spirit and lead to believe there is hope for us yet. :bunny:

 

[Lincoln]

For a minute there I thought you guys were getting serious. :nono:

Just for comparison:

I graduated from a small class (roughly 100) and ten of them were dead within five years of graduation. All but two of them were, in my opinion, were caused by drugs. None OD or anything, but most died in wrecks and doing stupid sh** while strung out. As for the other two, one was shot in the back during a fight and the other pulled a dummy of the century and decided to start cleaning his pistol loaded. Out of my six closest friends only one is left.

When I was a senior there was a lot of pot, a few pills, and every once in a while some acid. Meth became popular right after high school and by the time my little sister got there six years later there were studies being done that showed 85% of the school was using meth more than three times a week.

The towns solution was to put in a drug drop box where you could put your stash, no questions asked. Then when none got deposited they said there wasn't a drug problem and canned the studies.

It seems to run in about 10 year spurts. The kids start figuring it out and back off.

Also, I took Eagles post as feeding some of Beezil's ribbing back at him. The same goes for Ivan, I kind of remember him being a smart a$$ at Moab. He must have missed my post about chopping off Washington, Oregon, and California and pushing them off into the ocean. The only problem is my pristine desert would probably become a forest because of becoming ocean front property.

You boys can't be this serious all the time, can you? I enjoy the discussion and opinions and the good natured personal attacks, but the serious slams I can do without.

Take Care,
Lincoln

 

[RichP]

Got two teens myself, one just graduated HS last nite and plans on going army at the end of the summer. I've been driving my daughter to school every day for the past year and I have been taking a neighbors son with us, he was getting picked on and into fights on the bus. Don't understand it, kid was quiet but can carry on a good conversation, small for his age, cross country runner, youth group at church, family problems at home, alcoholic truck driver father who does not beat him, very ill mother but he was dealing with it. His grades went down so they kicked him off the cc team, his passion, and isolated him from the only friends he had so he gravitated to a gang, crips no less here in the poconos. Now he's in the 'boot camp' school our county runs with all the other gang members who are the only ones willing to accept him. The systems so called 'solution' made the problem worse, took it from academic problems and escalted it to academic/social problems, good fix eh.
Our problem here in the poconos are all the new yorkers that move here to escape the problems in the big city and bring the problems out here.
One family in our neighborhood has 5 teenagers, all out of the bronx, 4 are prior convicted felons, one walked into a local gas station/mart and robbed it at gun point. This was 4 months ago, I see him daily driving his new Pontiac Fiero V6 GT, absolutely mint conditon, to school, WTF... If he had done it 2 months earlier with the old local owners he would have left in a body bag but the new owners are from NYC and don't believe in guns, they had a better video system installed, color, guess that way they can run better quality movies at their wake. They can't get it into their minds that the only police we have are state and they are 20mi away in any direction. In this area if called on I'd wager that 75% of the locals here would respond armed if needed.

An armed society is a polite society.