Anti-OBAMA bumper sticker Link page

[YELLAHEEP]

Grin,

That's probably the best post I've read in a very long time, and one that I 100% agree with. I'm wired exactly the same way brutha.

Our "war" in the middle east is one we will never "win". It's an over-inflated police action masked with good intentions. And all for what?

I for one would love to see a complete withdrawl of all forces and let the middle eastern people get back to throwing rocks and Muslim ideals at each other just like they have been doing for centuries. It's none of our business.

But when it crosses into our Country, then without a doubt we should release hell-fire and get pay back. But once that's done, it's done and we need to return our focus on our own issues on our home turf. The money being spent for the "war effort" in the middle east is the biggest waste in history. The lives sacrificed no doubt were heroic at the core, but I'm definitely not supporting the cause.

9/11 took enough American lives........ we shoulda reduced Iraq to a nuclear wasteland in response and quitely returned to business as usual.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

The constitution guarantees it -- the 1st amendment.



Absolutely unjust war, trampling upon the natural rights of the native americans -- what are we going to do about it now though? Pretend it didn't happen? Move all the white folks back to Europe? No, I think we are all stuck with the results of our oppression of the natives, but that doesn't mean we should champion it and encourage the destruction of other cultures either...



Perhaps the best example in modern-history of a "just" war. (1) King George tramples upon our (American colonists) natural rights, seizing our property, denying us the pursuit of happiness. (2) we tell King George to kick rocks, pound sand, suck %^& through the Declaration of Independence, advising that we are free and do not intend to have our natural rights denied; (3) England ATTACKS US -- in self defense and defense of our natural rights, we go to war, a just war, and hand England her ass and tell her to play nice next time out -- just war of self defense.



Anyone whos speaks of war as some terriffic state of affairs needs to rethink it -- Ira, you've been there and done that. Was it fun? Did you enjoy witnessing the destruction and loss of life? War is to be avoided an virtually all costs -- only in defense of liberty can it be justified, not defense of "interests", i.e. goods that belong to someone else that we would like a peice of.



That has certainly been the marketing voice of every war in the last century. I don't buy it, and I say :bs: that people cannot defend themselves. The people of the world will have liberty and freedom when they stand up and take it from their oppressors - just like the colonists did. Liberty and freedom is not a gift that we can give, it is something that the oppressed must obtain for themselves. Iraq will be "free" when we butt out of their affairs and let the chips fall -- It may well take another 100 years before the Iraqi people figure it out and claim their freedom themselves, I hope the US has managed to keep itself together to welcome them to the party when that day comes...



We can agree to disagree - I cannot think of a single instance where the federal government is concerned with much besides perpetuation and growth of its tyrannical self, and manipulating the people into believing in its benevolence.



Provided we continue to unjustly pursue war, your are absolutely correct. Were we able to follow the founder's philosiphies of "not going abroad seeking dragons to slay", and engaging in "friendship and trade with all, but avoiding entangling alliances", we might be able to be an example in a freer, more prosperous, and less warlike world. Hard to tell if we don't try.



If we wish to end OUR problems in the middle east, we would allow the middle east to deal with their own issues. It is not OUR oil, Israel is not the 51st state, and our attempts to dictate to the people of the middle east how they should and should not live will do nothing but ensure that the centuries-long pattern of constant futile warfare in the middle east continues in perpetuity.



I don't doubt it for an instant -- we have become experts in creating enemies, and then destroying them. As to bloodshed, no doubt you are right -- if it is for the right reasons, I can at least imagine risking my own. But I can't, and won't, say ALL or even MOST war is justifiable, moral, or consistent with the model of natural rights that we like to say our American experiment is based upon.atriot:

Just so you know, I have much respect for you and intend no disrespect! We have our constitution because of a war..... and some still say it was unjust! War is not terrific by any means, I never suggested it was BUT sometimes a necessary evil! War is something that is apart of who we are as human beings and no matter how safisticated we think we are, that is just the way it is! The socalled borders that adorn the modern map were not always that way! Humans have been fighting over something since the stone age and the most popular reasons have always been political or religious! The problem in the middle east goes back to the 12th century, it is religious and will never go away! The only way to squash the problem is to do what was done on the first crusade and if you know history..... you know what I mean!! If we do not go over there and confront them, they will come over here and do much worse than they did on 9/11! I would love a world free of the nastyness but that is only a pipe dream!! What about the longest war in the history of our country....... the war on drugs???? The difference of just and unjust is in the eye of the beholder! I respect your view and you as a person but I wonder if you have seen the world as it really is ???

 

[xj-grin]

Just so you know, I have much respect for you and intend no disrespect! We have our constitution because of a war..... and some still say it was unjust! War is not terrific by any means, I never suggested it was BUT sometimes a necessary evil! War is something that is apart of who we are as human beings and no matter how safisticated we think we are, that is just the way it is! The socalled borders that adorn the modern map were not always that way! Humans have been fighting over something since the stone age and the most popular reasons have always been political or religious! The problem in the middle east goes back to the 12th century, it is religious and will never go away! The only way to squash the problem is to do what was done on the first crusade and if you know history..... you know what I mean!! If we do not go over there and confront them, they will come over here and do much worse than they did on 9/11! I would love a world free of the nastyness but that is only a pipe dream!! What about the longest war in the history of our country....... the war on drugs???? The difference of just and unjust is in the eye of the beholder! I respect your view and you as a person but I wonder if you have seen the world as it really is ???

And again, Ira, I'll agree with you that as long as we engage in perpetual war, war will indeed be perpetual. Your argument of "get them there before they get us here" is a self-fulfilling prophecy -- they wish to attack us here BECAUSE we are there, trying to tell them how to live. 9-eleven, and the prior bombing of the WTC before it, marks the only "terrorist" actions on American soil... why was America targeted? Because we're rich? No. OBL is richer than virtually all Americans... because we're free? No. they could care less.... because we blaspheme the profit with our wild and secular lives? No. they expect as much from heathens -- America is a target for islamic fundamentalists because the US has chosen to involve itself in the affairs of the middle east. And not just Israel's creation and our defense of her -- the Iranian uprising in the 1970's was a direct result of a US funded and trained coup in Iran in 1953 to remove a democratically elected - but fundamental muslim - leader, and install the western-puppet shaw... the hostage crisis is nothing but blowback.

If we removed ourselves and our bases from mid-eastern soil, set the example of a prosperous and free society, encouraged cooperation, but didn't sanction those who dared to disagree with us, one of two things might happen -- the mid-east would, as Troy says, revert to throwing rocks (or more dangerous weapons) at each other, or perhaps, start to learn to live in something resembling peace. One thing is nearly certain -- the US would cease to be a target.

Don't think I don't respect you as well, and all that wear the uniform beside you. Military discipline demands that brave men like yourselves deploy and follow your orders -- I have nothing but respect for you, but I want you here to DEFEND the US, not there, maintaining the safety of dozens of Afghani tribes that could teach Chicago politicians a thing or two about corruption and violence. I respect the soldier, but your top-eschelon commanders in DC, however, have some splaining to do...

 

[Fred]

I don't know, Chris, your description of a just war being only a war of self-defense, to me has a striking resemblance to "the duty to retreat" that some states place in the way of personal self defense. I can't come up with a convincing argument, however. I'm only an engineer, and a Neolithic Conservative.

Fred

 

[xj-grin]

I don't know, Chris, your description of a just war being only a war of self-defense, to me has a striking resemblance to "the duty to retreat" that some states place in the way of personal self defense. I can't come up with a convincing argument, however. I'm only an engineer, and a Neolithic Conservative.

Fred

Self defense, except in goofy-gun-control states, does not involve a duty to retreat -- it involves retalitory action, not continued offensives. Believe me, say I were attacked in my home -- I'm not shooting for the knees, and I'm not stopping because my attack seems affective. I stop when the threat has been eliminated, and my defense is secure.:viking:

 

[Fred]

If I have to pay for a government that can only retaliate to protect me and mine, I'll do it myself. That was fine in the feudal days, and with the knights of the round table but it doesn't fly with WMD that madmen control. Our life is good, there are people in the world that want to take it, or prevent us from living it, why should we wait for them to try?

 

[YELLAHEEP]

Don't think I don't respect you as well, and all that wear the uniform beside you. Military discipline demands that brave men like yourselves deploy and follow your orders -- I have nothing but respect for you, but I want you here to DEFEND the US, not there, maintaining the safety of dozens of Afghani tribes that could teach Chicago politicians a thing or two about corruption and violence. I respect the soldier, but your top-eschelon commanders in DC, however, have some splaining to do...

Once again Chris - spot on! You're on fire brutha! :thumbup:

 

[Only in a XJ]

Ok so the Anti-OBAMA bumper sticker thread has been high jacked.....

Lets bring it back.....

atriot:

 

[RockyCodeHead]

Don't think I don't respect you as well, and all that wear the uniform beside you. Military discipline demands that brave men like yourselves deploy and follow your orders -- I have nothing but respect for you, but I want you here to DEFEND the US, not there, maintaining the safety of dozens of Afghani tribes that could teach Chicago politicians a thing or two about corruption and violence. I respect the soldier, but your top-eschelon commanders in DC, however, have some splaining to do...

I would like to weigh in on this one point, I disagree with the "I want you here to DEFEND the US, not there" part....

I don't want any war fought on our land. Let the wars we've fought here be enough. My perspective is that if we have to be involved, by whatever circumstances, it should be done "there", not "here".

All things being ideal, I'd prefer no war. But, alas, nothing is ideal. Traveling to exotic foreign lands, meeting exotic and dangerous people and killing them "there" is the best we can do.

Rob

 

[RockyCodeHead]

 

[Smittty9785]

can there be a new post about this being the coolest threat EVER??

 

[Smittty9785]

Why?
I mean I can understand if someone doesn't support A war, but being against war in general?
There are some things worth fighting for, IMO.
Ya know, like this, and these, and this, and for these lines, and for what this stands for, and for these guys, and for them, and yes even them.

Your my new best friend... so very true

 

[Smittty9785]

http://www.cafepress.com/_o_shit

hell yes!

Scott, I never knew. Thank you oh so very much. i just bought me one of them t-shirts...

 

[xj-grin]

Traveling to exotic foreign lands, meeting exotic and dangerous people and killing them

While I'm obviously not on board with the concept, FMJ is one of my favs - nice quote.

Fred -- I disagree, they have no desire to take our freedom or wealth -- they want us to leave them the hell alone. If we do, we cease to be a target.

 

[flingshot]

I can't find a picture but I saw one that said "OBAMA BIN LYIN"

Me likey.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

-- America is a target for islamic fundamentalists because the US has chosen to involve itself in the affairs of the middle east. And not just Israel's creation and our defense of her --

If we removed ourselves and our bases from mid-eastern soil, set the example of a prosperous and free society, encouraged cooperation, but didn't sanction those who dared to disagree with us, one of two things might happen -- the mid-east would, as Troy says, revert to throwing rocks (or more dangerous weapons) at each other, or perhaps, start to learn to live in something resembling peace. One thing is nearly certain -- the US would cease to be a target.

Wrong my friend!!! You do not understand the enemy!! Have you read the Koran..... I have read a bit of it because I want to know MY enemy..... Here are some lines from it...


"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)
"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)
"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)
"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)
"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)
"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)
"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)
"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:7
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)
"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29) "Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

This comes directly from the Koran and if you think for one minute that these people will just leave us alone you are sorely misguided my friend!! These people want to stamp our way of life from the face of the earth!! I am sure you know I am a Pagan and believe in Deity not God..... Islam wishes to destroy ALL religions not Islam!! If we do not band together and take the fight to these radical religious killers then the day will come when you will be forced to face east and pray to Allah!! How is that you say....... They are already here under OUR religious freedom plotting our demise!!!!!

 

[xj-grin]

Wrong my friend!!! You do not understand the enemy!! Have you read the Koran..... I have read a bit of it because I want to know MY enemy..... Here are some lines from it...


"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)
"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)
"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)
"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)
"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)
"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)
"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)
"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)
"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)
"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:7
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)
"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29) "Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

This comes directly from the Koran and if you think for one minute that these people will just leave us alone you are sorely misguided my friend!! These people want to stamp our way of life from the face of the earth!! I am sure you know I am a Pagan and believe in Deity not God..... Islam wishes to destroy ALL religions not Islam!! If we do not band together and take the fight to these radical religious killers then the day will come when you will be forced to face east and pray to Allah!! How is that you say....... They are already here under OUR religious freedom plotting our demise!!!!!

Again, I disagree. Are there fundamental islamists who interpret their Koran this way, sure. There are fundamental christians that likewise lose the message of love and believe crusade is the answer. Were the muslims invading Europe in the middle ages, or was it the west bring the war to jeruselem? More the latter, I think. The vast majority of muslims, as well as christians, are peaceful people concerned with the future of their immortal souls, not which way you or I face when we pray. I know a few muslims, and they are good people.

I further disagree with your argument that if we do not apply the "Bush doctrine" and engage in pre-emptive war we'll be praying to Allah in the east. There is absolutely no reason that a well funded, trained and armed military cannot defend the US from all enemies - "foriegn and domestic". To "take the fight to them" is to deny that they share the same natural rights we do - LIFE, LIBERTY, PROPERTY and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. I think we either embrace the precepts of our founders to ALL MEN, or reject them and return to barbarism.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

Something else to ponder..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L9oNfVxrzc

 

[xj-grin]

Something else to ponder..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L9oNfVxrzc

Again, quotes which like most religious documents can be contextual, can be metaphorical, or can be somewhat outdated -- I have no intention of getting into a reliegious debate with you, Ira, since you know I share your lack of belief and have no intention of digging through the texts of other religions to find similarly wacky clauses. If the fundamentalists are determined to bring the fight to us (and I highly doubt it based on history, if we were to remove ourselves from their affairs), we should be more than prepared to repel them and teach them not to return -- to bring the fight to them without provocation is to disregard their natural rights, and to become the oppressors instead of the free -- not my bag.

 

[ColoradoRaptor]

Again, I disagree. Are there fundamental islamists who interpret their Koran this way, sure. There are fundamental christians that likewise lose the message of love and believe crusade is the answer. Were the muslims invading Europe in the middle ages, or was it the west bring the war to jeruselem? More the latter, I think. The vast majority of muslims, as well as christians, are peaceful people concerned with the future of their immortal souls, not which way you or I face when we pray. I know a few muslims, and they are good people.

I further disagree with your argument that if we do not apply the "Bush doctrine" and engage in pre-emptive war we'll be praying to Allah in the east. There is absolutely no reason that a well funded, trained and armed military cannot defend the US from all enemies - "foriegn and domestic". To "take the fight to them" is to deny that they share the same natural rights we do - LIFE, LIBERTY, PROPERTY and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS. I think we either embrace the precepts of our founders to ALL MEN, or reject them and return to barbarism.

Another reason I believe the way I do........ You either belive the Bible in it's entirety as well as the Koran or you are a hypocrite........ You cannot pick and choose parts of a holy book to believe..... it is ALL or nothing!! I have delt with Muslims over there and here...... again I say you do not know OUR enemy!! And again I say... the borders we know today were not always this way!! Study your history...... the part of the world that is so hotly contested was NOT islamic from the start, it was Christian!! The muslims have always been pushing west........... the west just pushed back!! The vast majority of muslims, as well as christians, are peaceful people concerned with the future of their immortal souls, not which way you or I face when we pray! Christians yes because the holy book says so........... but not the Muslims, their book reads differently...... killing you or me will earn them paradise and they MUST face east to pray!!!!! They are beating us with our own doctrine and laws!!! The best defence is a good offence!!