Alternator and Starter parts....might save some time for ya

[machinisttx]

Disclaimer: Everything below will apply only to 4.0L equipped XJ's.

Starters: Several months back I had some trouble with the starter on my '00 XJ and spent some hours searching for info on rebuild parts. I had no luck initially and took my starter down to the local rebuild shop. Luckily I had a spare starter that Swamprat had given me(thanks!). I tried again later and came up with some real info. The 4.0L XJ's are equipped with a Mitsubishi PMGR series starter. As far as I can tell, there's no significant difference between year models. I could be wrong on that, so please don't take it as gospel. I am aware that the connector for the solenoid is different between early models and late ones, but that is pretty easy to deal with. While I'm on this subject, I found replacement solenoid side connectors for anyone interested. http://www.aspwholesale.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=7772 There are also two different solenoids with that connector already on them, with the only difference being the direction the connector faces. In any case, that connector is attached to the solenoid on my starter with a screw and a nut, so it can be removed and put on a solenoid for an earlier model(which is what I did rather than hack the wiring).

Unfortunately, I haven't found a "kit" to rebuild the starter, but the company linked above does have all the individual parts to do the job. You'll have to search through the "application guide" with is on the left side of the page near the bottom. Just search for jeep cherokee and your year model. It will also pull up the alternator info below.

Alternators: I went outside a short while ago to have a look at the alternators in my '00 and '91 XJ's. To my disappointment, I can't read the stickers on either one. From the site linked above, it should be a Nippondenso ER/IF series for my '00 XJ. The rebuild/repair kit part is here: http://www.aspwholesale.com/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6050 That may or may not(it isn't for my 91) be the correct kit for your alternator, so use the application guide search to be sure. They do have 220 amp upgrade kits for some of the ER/IF series, but I'm not yet sure if they have one for the Cherokee alternator. I have found them for the grand cherokee alternator and several other common chryslers. All of them are around $200 anyway. Someone else might have them too, I haven't searched to the end of the internet to find out.

I don't know if it's ever been mentioned here or not, but for what it's worth, it appears that the alternators on these are externally regulated. I'm not sure yet whether that's handled by the ECM/PCM or a separate regulator. From what I've been reading, it appears that chrysler decided some years ago to have the ecm/pcm manage it, but I don't know when it started or on what models. Good news is that it makes it a little easier to convert one to a weldernator for anyone that wants a cheap on board welder.

 

[Jeepguy03]

Thanks for the info on the starters. What kind of problems were you having with yours? My 2000 has been turning over extremely slow lately, but I think my issue is my crappy Duralast battery and not the starter.

The newer model XJs (96-2001) have alternators that are regulated by the PCM. I know the Renix XJs have internally regulated alternators, and I'm not exactly sure about the 1991-1995 Cherokees.

 

[machinisttx]

I had the same symptoms you describe plus it would sometimes not crank at all. It was odd to me that my battery was good(tested), but the starter acted like it wasn't getting enough power/any power. I checked all the connections and couldn't find a problem, so I ended up pulling the starter. I disassembled it and found it was full of oil and road grime. After cleaning it out, it worked fine again for a while, but failed entirely a couple of months later. It was then that I swapped it for the spare and took the original to the rebuild shop. He told me that the solenoid and brushes were shot, which I believe since I couldn't get it to energize or run at all when I tested it with direct connections to 12v battery.

I did look a little more last night after I posted and from what I found there is a difference in starters. The chrysler part numbers are different and there is a complete rebuild kit offered for the starter on my '91. I think some of the component part numbers were different as well. As far as the alternators go, the '91 shows to be externally regulated. I haven't checked a service manual, so I'm not sure if it's PCM managed or a separate regulator mounted elsewhere.

 

[Matthew Currie]

All the post-Renix alternators are regulated by the PCM.

Another hint on Nippondenso alternators is that certain early-90s Grand Cherokee alternators are the same, but may be higher amperage. At some point electrical connectors were changed, but the basic mounting remains the same. At some point I bought, at a yard sale, a brand new GC alternator, and it fit fine in both the 95 and 99 except for connectors.

Starters come in a few slight variations, including one of length, but as far as I know they all fit. However, connectors differ and you might need to alter the wiring connectors, and they differ internally, so that not all can be rebuilt with the same parts.

 

[machinisttx]

Good to know! :cheers:

From what I saw the other night, the early '90's XJ's had a 90 amp alternator. My guess is that an optioned out Grand Cherokee of similar vintage would likely have slightly more output. As far as the connectors go, I'm pretty sure I saw some repair/replacement connectors at the website I linked and I know I've seen them elsewhere.

I need to upgrade the alternators on both of my XJ's, and I may end up with dual alternators. From what I've been reading all that's needed is to connect the alternator fields to "sync" them.

 

[Matthew Currie]

Some of the Nippondensos I've seen can have their connectors swapped over if they're not too rusted on. If the one you're replacing can be sacrificed that's a possibility.

 

[machinisttx]

I'm going to be hitting some local scrapyards this weekend to see if I can find some junk alternators. Hopefully they'll have something with the same mount pattern as the 4.0 uses.

 

[Anak]

FWIW, there is tech write-up on overhauling the 4.0L starters here: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1115001&highlight=Starter

 

[machinisttx]

Yep, found that before. I've rebuilt starters and alternators before, but on older vehicles. Not complicated at all. Most autoparts stores will carry rebuild parts for what I've done before. All the local places told me they didn't have, and couldn't get, parts to rebuild starters/alternators on every newer vehicle I've asked about.

 

[Matthew Currie]

You may still be able to get parts from a local rebuilder, if there's a shop in your vicinity that does alternators and starters.

Be warned, though, that Nippondenso slip rings seem to be a little soft, and by the time one wears out its brushes, it may also have badly scored slip rings. If they're bad enough they'll eat up your brushes in a fairly short time. Given the low price of brushes it might still be worthwhile, since "a short time" in the time scale of alternators may still be many thousands of miles.

Slip rings must be extremely smooth. Do not sand them. If dirty, maybe crocus cloth at most. For optimum life, the surface should be polished.

 

[ehall]

Find an electric motor specialty shop, and they probably have a guy that works on alternators. There's a mennonite place near me that rebuilds them and either has all the parts or can order them for me. I rebuilt my ZJ alternator a couple of years ago (short on the field terminal), and just rebuilt a CS144 for my other project car.

 

[machinisttx]

When I said "local places" in a previous post, I was referring to places like autozone/orielly's. I never deal with the local NAPA since their hours and mine don't usually work out. The local alternator/starter shops can get anything, but their hours really don't coincide with mine and I have to take time off to go to them.

I've redone delco alternators in the past. I picked up a Delco 10SI at the scrapyard last weekend for $5. Needs brushes for sure. I polished the slip rings with some grey scotchbrite.

Back to XJ alternators.... The early XJ's with the GM V6 had delco alternators. I haven't tracked down exactly what model(s) of alternator were used on those, but it's looking like the '84-'86 models used the Delco 12SI on both the 2.5 and 2.8L engines. I'm not yet clear on what the '87-'90 models were equipped with, but it appears that the Delco CS-130D is a replacement on both the 2.5L and 4.0L. That means it's the GM pattern mount and you should be able to swap in numerous other alternators from GM vehicles. Same goes for the earlier models with the 12SI. There are several I've found that should have the same mount pattern and are higher amperage. You may have to make an adapter harness and/or change the regulator to make it plug and play. The '91-'01 with 4.0 uses a 130mm Nippondenso mount. All that I've checked have been clockwise rotation.

XJ's from '84-'90 have internal voltage regulators in the alternators, and you should be able to get repair/rebuild parts like brushes, voltage regulators, etc. at your local autoparts store. From '91 on, they are externally regulated by the PCM. I ran across a kit a few nights ago that will allow the use of an internally regulated alternator by basically tricking the PCM, which will keep the dash light from coming on. I need to dig deeper, but since other automakers are also using the pcm to regulate voltage, I'm thinking it may be possible to swap a higher amp alt with a different mount(late model GM for example) with an adapter plug.

If you're hitting up a scrapyard in search of replacement alternators, the 130mm Nippondenso mount was also used on the '94-'98 grand cherokees, '85-'95 Toyota trucks with the 3.0L, '96 model 2wd toyota trucks with the 2.4L, the '93-'93 Toyota T100 with the 3.0L, many Toyota cars from the mid '80's to around '00, '88-'96 Dodge Dakota/Ramcharger/trucks/vans, '91-'99 Jeep wrangler, '92-'96 Dodge Vipers with the 8.0L, '85-'95 Chrysler cars, many Honda cars from the late '80s up to around '00, and probably a few others I haven't found yet. One thing to watch out for though, outside of the chrysler applications, most of those alternators are listed as lower amperage. I just confirmed that there are multiple stators and rotors for these alternators(different amperages) via an old parts catalog. I can tell you that if you find one of the lower 90 amp output units, it's not really feasible to upgrade it to a 120 or 136 amp...you'd have to have pretty much all the major parts of the 120 amp and you'll spend more than just buying a 120 amp in the first place.

That's all for now.....

 

[Matthew Currie]

I always sort of wished they had stuck with Delco alternators, just because they're so common and cheap. Back in the old days I could find good ones in the dump. It's a joke about some of that stuff that it's so common you can find it on the side of the road, but I actually really did find a Chevy 350 on the side of the road once, and a few years later, a seemingly good Delco alternator! I always wondered how far the car got before they noticed.

 

[machinisttx]

It would have been better for them to have stayed with Delco. From what I've found so far, the ND130 mount doesn't have many options. I'm hoping I can find something on how the PCM's regulate voltage. If it's done the same way by gm/ford, then 91 up XJ's would have a lot more options, though we'd need adapter harnesses and brackets.

LOL on finding parts on the road. I watched a guy stomp the throttle on an 80's model chevy truck with the tailgate down, taking off from a stop sign. An NP208 tcase came out the back. Either he didn't notice, or didn't care, cuz he didn't come back for it. I loaded it in my jeep and brought it home. I've also seen wheels/tires detach themselves from vehicles at 70mph. Not fun to have one coming at you from the oncoming lanes. Also saw a car fall off a flatbed wrecker once, while it was moving about 45mph.