A New Turbo XJ Is Born

what kind of boost are u running?>? how could u run a external wastegate and run 0 boost? what size spring is in it ? there is no such thing is running 0 boost unless u take the spring out of the wastegate. .. is the car spiking boost when it gets into RPMS? what RPM DOES it start to make boost at?.. i have built several turbo vehicles with that same turbo and run into many problem.. also do u have a wideband o2? also where is the O2 sensor welded in at:?? i like to put my o2 sensor bout a foot from the exhaust housing .or sometimes right at the opening of the exhaust houseing. like 2-6 inches away to assure a good reading these are all factors i run into alot
 
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I have a 4psi spring in the externalgate. Ihave noted 3.5 psi on test run
I noted that turbo starts to spool around 2500-2800 rpm.Just about were I thought it would be. I didn't hAVE money for aquaility turbo,I just hope my knock off unit survives for at least a year. I'm not going topush more then 7 psi soIthink I will be able to keep turbine RPM's down.
No boost spikes noted.

besides the fact that the turbo's are cheap,running them to 25 psi and who knows what rpm's is sure to blow them up quick. Upon dissassembling the turbo I found casting burs, decent piece of metal about 1.25"long and a couple mm thick. on inside of turbine scroll. Its deff worth the time to diss and make sure its all good.

Having technical diff's with AEM, eveything works except MAP out voltage to PCM is nonexistent. I have to call the TEch line.Darn!!!
 
those turbos are fine.. they will run 7-10 even 15 psi without anyproblems . i ran one on a stock chevy cavalier at 10 psi for a year now . it boosts fine and runs good .. u can take the turbo apart but i would not take the shaft out or the bearings. as long as u keep it fed with oil ur fine . at 3psi i dont see how u would be gettin any loss of power.. or problems seems like something else is causeing it to run lean. O.o MAP sensor there is ur problem lol

do u have a adjustable fuel pressure regulator?

if map voltage is non existant then that could be ur problem ..

manifold absolute pressure is the only thing that tells ur comp how much fuel is delivered .the data is used to calculate air density and determine the engine's air mass flow rate, which in turn determines the required fuel metering for optimum combustion.. this is the most important sensor u have .. most cars are eather MAF or MAP cars and hardly use both ..
u can convert to a MAF (mass air flow) using the speed density calculation .. which is much better for turbo cars
 
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ok .. so i know exactly ur problem.. .. when u first start the car.. u are running the (OPEN LOOP )program which is "a preset programming of a rich fuel mixture and spark advance" and THIS program never changes.untill the engine warms to operating temp(this is only so ur car can get up to temp faster .. when ur jeep warms up . it goes into "CLOSED LOOP" meaning it feeds off information given from the sensors to change" fuel mixtures and spark advance".. this is why when ur jeep goes into closed loop it is looking for that MAP sensor information to know how much fuel to deliver to given cylinders..
"basically it is goin into "LIMP MODE" because it does not read the info from the MAP sensor so it does not know what to do" LIMP MODE is also a preset programming just so u can make it home or to a safe place to fix it..

hope this helps.. good luck
 
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My running problems are not an issue under boost alone ,just in genral truck runs like crap,because shes dumping extra fuel.Yes the problem is in Closed loop mode.(Truck is not in Limp home mode, and actually wont even fire without Map sensor imput voltage.) Obivously because Pcm runs off Oxygen sensor imputs while in CL.Thats were I noticed the problem showing up ,with live data from scan tool monitoring O2's. Had to talk with a Master Jeep auto tech to figure this one out.

I Have a 2000 xj,Cali emmissions, originally equipped with dual mini converters off exhaust manifolds. You can see from the pics of my build that I have left out a converter. In the boostworks build,Bryson was able to leave out converter and truck ran fine, but he has 99 with who knows what emmissions package and got lucky.

While in closed loop pcm looks at sensors (all 4 of them) and determines fuel trims from change in oxygen content due to exhaust flow through converters.

So basiclly a XJ of my vintage will not tolerate converter removal. I also had O2 sensor locations fairly close to each other, about two feet between upstream and downstream sensors. I moved downstreams sensors farther back were O2 would be located on a 96-99 xj. This helped out alot.But after a while(10min)still has longterm trim problems.Adding to much fuel.

The AEM Fic-6 is up and operational,Just had wrong sensor imput selected in FIC set up table.Stupid Noob mistake.

So I have a Maganaflow converter 3" inlet/outlet on order from summit racing, should see it tomarrow. I will place it were original secondary cat was on XJ.From their I can start doing some real tuning with FIC-6.
 
ok .. but in all my years of building turbo cars and my ASE master tech degree and my cali smog lic. . i never heard of HAVEiNG TO HAVE A CAT TO RUN UR CAR properly.. cat is only there purly for smog. to burn up excess H/C's. not for fuel trim issues.. and + with a turbo u want the least back pressure u can get ..i have a 98 xj with no converters and it runs fine ..

(takin from my cali smog handbook) A catalytic converter works by using a catalyst to provide an environment for a chemical reaction in which toxic combustion by-products are converted to less-toxic substances.Three-way catalytic converters can store oxygen from the exhaust gas stream, usually when the air fuel ratio goes lean. When insufficient oxygen is available from the exhaust stream, the stored oxygen is released and consumed. This lean-ness occurs either when oxygen derived from NOx reduction is unavailable or certain maneuvers such as hard acceleration enrich the mixture beyond the ability of the converter to supply oxygen.

if u are running lean means that u have excess NOx building up

When an internal combustion engine is under high load (e.g. wide open throttle), the output of the oxygen sensor is ignored, and the ECU automatically enriches the mixture to protect the engine, as misfires under load are much more likely to cause damage.
This is referred to an engine running in 'open-loop mode'. Any changes in the sensor output will be ignored in this state. In many cars (with the exception of some turbocharged models), inputs from the air flow meter are also ignored, as they might otherwise lower engine performance due to the mixture being too rich or too lean, and increase the risk of engine damage due to detonation if the mixture is too lean

New vehicles are required to have a sensor before and after the exhaust catalyst to meet U.S. regulations requiring that all emissions components be monitored for failure. Pre and post-catalyst signals are monitored to determine catalyst efficiency(not fuel trims). Additionally, some catalyst systems require brief cycles of lean (oxygen-containing) gas to load the catalyst and promote additional oxidation reduction of undesirable exhaust components.

emissions package has nothing to do with how the car runs it is only for atomspheric health . boostworks can chime in anytime to tell me if im wrong, or any info i have gave u is false..

let me know how that works out ..
 
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I was told by a ASE master Jeep tech who has worked on hundreds of these that no converters and having sensors to close will cause problems I'm having. heres his responce tomy question.


Re: O2 sensor voltage.

Sent at: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:10 pm
From: thejeeper
To: theoriginalscion
If you are not running a converter, make sure there is plenty of room between the upstream and downstream sensors. If they are too close, then the problem you are having can continue.
It's better to let someone think you are an Idiot than to open your mouth and prove it.


thejeeper Posts: 2317Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:49 pm



I figured I'd be fine without converters. I've ran many a car without one , but only on non obd2 cars.

So maybe I worded fuel trims and converters controlling them wrong,my bad.. I'm just saying that when in closed loop mode pcm has to look at many sensor variables. Even the stupid battery temp sensor has a slight influece on fuel trims.

I will be welding in converter tonight,I'll post back with some good news(I hope)
 
Hey man, hopefully I can help out...


First of all I have some questions,

did you solder in the resistors into the O2 circuits?
Do you have 4 or 5 wire O2 sensors?
Have you made a rough O2 adjustment map?
What is the AEM set to in the settings(how it outputs)?

My Jeep is OBD2, and although it doesn't have the 00+ dual converters, the way it will interpret the O2 information is the exact same. With that information, it is true that you should be able to run without having to use a cat. However there obviously isn't anything wrong with doing so, you'll just sacrafice some power and spool up time.

Sounds like you've figured out your wiring problems?

Also have you downloaded AEMs log viewer? If you don't mind datalog some runs and shoot them my way. I'll take a look and see if I notice anything.

Hang in there man! It's almost always a really simple issue that just needs ironed out.
 
Pat me on the back, and call me a monkey's uncle. Cause the converter has fixed 95% of running issues. I also noticed no change in exhaust note with magnaflow converter.
Long term fuel trims are front bank 0%
rear bank 0%
I still have a slight rear bank Short term negative trims. Like -5% to -10%. So she's still dumping fuel.But bank 2/1 O2 snsor heater is failing, and 2/2 is running slightly over 1 volt sometimes.

In responce to Boostworks
2% tolerance resistors soldered in. Spliced into jumper harness.
Regular 4 wire o2's.
No adjustment to o2 map. And I think I have it set to percent mode so it passes signal through unmolested. Still new to AEm so I think that percenteged mode is corect right now untill I actually want to tune the closed loop portion of o2 map.
Still my running issue and problem was there before AEM install Just after turbo and Cylinder head install. I reused all engine sensors and beside misssing converter the only other thing I did was replumb Evap and all vacum lines over to hydraulic hose and AN fitting's for all conections.

See the truck has to be able to sit thier and Idle correctly. I'm not going to drive it untill I can get it to to do that. But know that seems to be fixed.

A little reading material.
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2000 Jeep Truck Cherokee 4WD L6-4.0L VIN S

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Oxygen Sensor
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Description and Operation
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Description and Operation OXYGEN SENSOR - PCM INPUT
The Oxygen Sensors (O2S) are attached to, and protrude into the vehicle exhaust system. Depending on the emission package, the vehicle may contain either 2 or 4 sensors. On non-California emissions packages, 2 sensors are used: upstream (referred to as 1/1) and downstream (referred to as 1/2). On California emissions packages, 4 sensors are used: 2 upstream (referred to as 1/1 and 2/1) and 2 downstream (referred to as 1/2 and 2/2).

An O2 sensor is a galvanic battery that provides the PCM with a voltage signal (0 - 1 volt) inversely proportional to the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. In other words, if the oxygen content is low, the voltage output is high; if the oxygen content is high the output voltage is low. The PCM uses this information to adjust injector pulse-width to achieve the 14.7-to-1 air/fuel ratio necessary for proper engine operation and to control emissions.

An O2 sensor must have a source of oxygen from outside of the exhaust stream for comparison. Current O2 sensors receive their fresh oxygen (outside air) supply through the wire harness. This is why it is important to never solder an O2 sensor connector, or pack the connector with grease.

Four wires (circuits) are used on each O2 sensor: a 12 volt feed circuit for the sensor heating element, a ground circuit for the heater element, a low-noise sensor return circuit to the PCM, and an input circuit from the sensor back to the PCM to detect sensor operation.

Oxygen Sensor Heaters/Heater Relays
On a certain non-California emission package, the heaters on both sensors are fed battery voltage from the ASD relay which is controlled by the PCM. Refer to ASD relay for more information. On another non-California emission package, the heaters on both sensors are fed battery voltage from the two O2S heater relays. The O2S relays are also controlled by the PCM. On the California emission package, the heaters on all 4 sensors are fed battery voltage from the two O2S Heater Relays.

The O2 sensor uses a Positive Thermal Co-efficient (PTC) heater element. As temperature increases, resistance increases. At ambient temperatures around 70 °F , the resistance of the heating element is approximately 6 ohms . As the sensor's temperature increases, resistance in the heater element increases. This allows the heater to maintain the optimum operating temperature of approximately 930 - 1100 °F (500 - 600 °C) . Although the sensors operate the same, there are physical differences, due to the environment that they operate in, that keep them from being interchangeable.

Maintaining correct sensor temperature at all times allows the system to enter into closed loop operation sooner. Also, it allows the system to remain in closed loop operation during periods of extended idle.

In Closed Loop operation, the PCM monitors certain O2 sensor input(s) along with other inputs, and adjusts the injector pulse width accordingly. During Open Loop operation, the PCM ignores the O2 sensor input. The PCM adjusts injector pulse width based on preprogrammed (fixed) values and inputs from other sensors.

Upstream Sensor (Non-California Emissions)
The upstream O2S sensor (1/1 sensor) is located in the exhaust downpipe before the catalytic convertor. It provides an input voltage to the PCM. The input tells the PCM the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. The PCM uses this information to fine tune fuel delivery to maintain the correct oxygen content at the downstream oxygen sensor. The PCM will change the air/fuel ratio until the upstream sensor inputs a voltage that the PCM has determined will make the downstream sensor output (oxygen content) correct.

The upstream oxygen sensor also provides an input to determine catalyst efficiency.

Downstream Sensor (Non-California Emissions)
The downstream heated oxygen sensor (1/2 sensor) is located near the outlet end of the catalytic convertor.The downstream sensor is also used to determine the correct air fuel ratio. As the oxygen content changes at the downstream the PCM calculates how much air fuel ratio change is required. The PCM then looks at the upstream oxygen sensor voltage and changes fuel delivery until the upstream sensor voltage changes enough to correct the downstream sensor voltage (oxygen content).

The downstream oxygen sensor also provides an input to determine catalyst efficiency.

Upstream Sensors (California Emissions)
Two upstream sensors are used (1/1 and 2/1). The 1/1 sensor is the first sensor to receive exhaust gases from the #1 cylinder. Both of the upstream O2S sensors are located in the exhaust manifold just before the mini-catalytic convertors. They provide an input voltage to the PCM. The input tells the PCM the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. The PCM uses this information to fine tune fuel delivery to maintain the correct oxygen content at the downstream oxygen sensors. The PCM will change the air/fuel ratio until the upstream sensors input a voltage that the PCM has determined will make the downstream sensors output (oxygen content) correct.

The upstream oxygen sensors also provide an input to determine mini-catalyst efficiency.

Downstream Sensors (California Emissions)
Two downstream sensors are used (1/2 and 2/2). The downstream sensors are located in the exhaust down-pipes just after the mini-catalytic convertors. The downstream is also used to determine the correct air fuel ratio. As the oxygen content changes at the downstream the PCM calculates how much air fuel ratio change is required. The PCM then looks at the upstream oxygen sensor voltage and changes fuel delivery until the upstream sensor voltage changes enough to correct the downstream sensor voltage (oxygen content).

The downstream oxygen sensors also provide an input to determine mini-catalyst efficiency.



Double read this and tell me I'm wrong.:banghead::banghead:
The downstream is also used to determine the correct air fuel ratio. As the oxygen content changes at the downstream the PCM calculates how much air fuel ratio change is required. The PCM then looks at the upstream oxygen sensor voltage and changes fuel delivery until the upstream sensor voltage changes enough to correct the downstream sensor voltage (oxygen content).
 
I've driven truck around block a few times,and to gas station. But I'm not going to damage my motor untill I can get ride of the bugs.

I gotthe manifold and turbine housing glowing cherry red hot on first test run. Got to experience closed loop fuel cut under boost. None of these things are good.

I apoligize for not getting a price list for build up yet. And I think some more pics are need.Video deff needed. Give me sometime.Busy at work and want to make sure truck is 100%.
 
Pat me on the back, and call me a monkey's uncle. Cause the converter has fixed 95% of running issues. I also noticed no change in exhaust note with magnaflow converter.
Long term fuel trims are front bank 0%
rear bank 0%
I still have a slight rear bank Short term negative trims. Like -5% to -10%. So she's still dumping fuel.But bank 2/1 O2 snsor heater is failing, and 2/2 is running slightly over 1 volt sometimes.

In responce to Boostworks
2% tolerance resistors soldered in. Spliced into jumper harness.
Regular 4 wire o2's.
No adjustment to o2 map. And I think I have it set to percent mode so it passes signal through unmolested. Still new to AEm so I think that percenteged mode is corect right now untill I actually want to tune the closed loop portion of o2 map.
Still my running issue and problem was there before AEM install Just after turbo and Cylinder head install. I reused all engine sensors and beside misssing converter the only other thing I did was replumb Evap and all vacum lines over to hydraulic hose and AN fitting's for all conections.

Double read this and tell me I'm wrong.:banghead::banghead:
The downstream is also used to determine the correct air fuel ratio. As the oxygen content changes at the downstream the PCM calculates how much air fuel ratio change is required. The PCM then looks at the upstream oxygen sensor voltage and changes fuel delivery until the upstream sensor voltage changes enough to correct the downstream sensor voltage (oxygen content).

You MUST make an O2 correction map in the AEM, or else the factory PCM is going to trim out any changes you make to the fuel map. Your going to want to set the O2 map to "Offset" and then do some testing to figure out what offset voltages will result in the target AFR your getting from the wideband. Does that make sense? Essentially your AEM is fooling the PCM so you can target the correct AFRs in closed loop. This is important because you can be in boost even under part throttle conditions where the PCM is still in closed loop. Here's a video that will help you set it up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mKpRxJulp4

Sounds like your on the right track! Just make sure not get into boost without making the O2 offset map, and make small tuning changes.
 
A turbo no more is my big red Jeep,
no more whine, no more spool,
no more go go go Jeep!!!

I tried and i tried, but she could not be beat.
That damn j-tec controller,
knocked me out in round three.

My Jeeps back stock, and running just fine.
All I have is the pictures,
and memories of that time.:tear:
 
I just so happen to have a Megasuirt2 on a Version three board that I built a couple years ago. But it needs to go into my Ice racer. I also have a SDS Unit sitting around.

I cant slap a inspection sticker on a 2000 vehicle so a standalone is out of the question. I still curse the day I had to buy a 00 rather then a 95 like I wanted.

I had truck running good for a while. But I developed a issuse with the o2 sensors, they just would not read correctly, like they were missing some of the exhaust flow. No amount of tuning with the AEM or different injectors, or O2 sensors would fix problem. This was purley a Closed loop running issue.(No faulty engine sensors, or wiring issues caused problem). After 5 seconds of switching in(CL)(at idle) ST fuel trims would go crazy And I could see O2's were only switching about .5 volt on my Snap-on scanner. I could pop a check engine light, and lock the Pcm into open loop fueling and enjoy one sweet ride. In open loop , or under hard load, the AEM worked great,And I could add as much fuel as I needed.
I also tried a 01 federal PCM that is not set up for dual converters and 4 O2's, and still had same running issues.


I'm wondering if my wastegate was sticking open. Possibly causeing exhaust to bypass 02's? If not then there may be/ a issue with my manifold design/wastegate?

In returning vehicle to stock manifolds, converters, and O2 setup, she runs like a top. I picked up a few ponies with a slight bit of head work to the 0331 head(yea I had to remove the 7120 head to run exhaust manifolds) ported intake and big bore throttle body. I'm thinking of making up a pair of weld el shorty headers. some high flow converters with V-band connection on both sides, and a nice y-pipe. The AEM is staying on and I'm interested in seeing what I can tune on a NA motor.
 
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