3link wishbone or single Triangulated 4link rear? ideas, pics.

[JeepFreak21]

first of all, that IS NOT a double-triagulated 4 link. that is a 3 link with a wishbone upper.

Wouldn't it be a wishbone 3 link with triangulated lowers?
Billy

 

[BrettM]

yes, but a 3 link nonetheless, not a 4 link.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

Im really liking the double triangulated 3 link idea.

I like how the lower links triangulated inwards, it gives good tire clearance. A normal wishbone 3link with the lower links outside the frame rails would have to have bent links or the rocks would hit the links before the rear tires climbs the rock. The lower links also protect the drive shaft better when triangulated. It also prevents rear steer.

I like it.

 

[JeepFreak21]

Im really liking the double triangulated 3 link idea.

I like how the lower links triangulated inwards, it gives good tire clearance. A normal wishbone 3link with the lower links outside the frame rails would have to have bent links or the rocks would hit the links before the rear tires climbs the rock. The lower links also protect the drive shaft better when triangulated. It also prevents rear steer.

I like it.

Wouldn't the lowers be described correctly as triangulating outward since they are wider at the axle then at the crossmember? I could be wrong...
Billy

 

[BrettM]

depends on if you're standing at the front or back :laugh3:

 

[4ward]

I've only got crappy shots of my double tri 4 link during build. May have some more after this weekend though.

This was where I thought it would be, but I ended up dropping the body 1" lower which made the lowers almost dead level.

It doesn't matter to me whether you have a 3 or 4 link, just make sure you can have some adjustment so that you can actually play with it without having to hack apart the whole thing.

I wouldn't be too worried about a 1" bore heim no matter what way you have the bolt axis facing. I have this one on my front 3 link and the bolt axis is parallel to the ground. I don't see it ever having a problem. That's a 5/8-3/4 next to it for comparison.

 

[BrettM]

his sure look like 3/4" rodends to me

do you have full-hydro up front? if not, I would definitely reccomend turning that rodend 90*. If you do it will probably be fine, but why risk it? It's generally not that much more work to run it the other way.

 

[4ward]

I used to run a 3/4-3/4 heim in its place. I broke 2 of them after A LOT of abuse. Rating on them was around 12,000lbs.- the 1-1.25 is rated at 60,000lbs. I'll never even wear this thing out, let alone break it. I'd like to know what experience you have with these rod ends to say that it'd be too weak.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

I've only got crappy shots of my double tri 4 link during build. May have some more after this weekend though.

This was where I thought it would be, but I ended up dropping the body 1" lower which made the lowers almost dead level.

It doesn't matter to me whether you have a 3 or 4 link, just make sure you can have some adjustment so that you can actually play with it without having to hack apart the whole thing.

I wouldn't be too worried about a 1" bore heim no matter what way you have the bolt axis facing. I have this one on my front 3 link and the bolt axis is parallel to the ground. I don't see it ever having a problem. That's a 5/8-3/4 next to it for comparison.

SICK! I love it.

Those angles look good.

 

[BrettM]

I used to run a 3/4-3/4 heim in its place. I broke 2 of them after A LOT of abuse. Rating on them was around 12,000lbs.- the 1-1.25 is rated at 60,000lbs. I'll never even wear this thing out, let alone break it. I'd like to know what experience you have with these rod ends to say that it'd be too weak.

I have never broken a rodend, so I guess I don't have the experience to say it's too weak. Of course I've also always used GOOD rodends setup PROPERLY, so there has been no reason to break one. I doubt you would have broken GOOD 3/4" rodends, good ones are rated over over 30,000lbs (aurora PRM12T: 34,319lbs).

The fact is that rodends ARE NOT designed to have a sideload on them. Why use them improperly if it takes an extra 10 minutes to do it right with no downsides?

 

[Luis]

For XJoachim

XJoachim, from the pics, and maybe I didnt read your post thoroughly I must give my .0005 cents. Having the rear coils sit under the frame like that is not a good idea. I mean, if its not resting on some sort of reinforced crossmember, or square tubing (and maybe it is and i didnt catch it), your frame MAY get "distorted". We built 2 XJ's rear coils like that once and both of them's rear frames got bent from having the coil rest on the bare frame without much reinforcing. In other words, the coils basically got driven into the frame, nice big dent/hole, not a very serviceable misshap. Thats why we had to change the design by reinforcing the frame where the coil sits.
I could be wrong, but you may want to check the area or get others advice.

Peace.

 

[4ward]

Well Max, I'm gonna have to disagree with you(multiple opinions, that's the beauty of these forums). I've bent 2 of those aroura bearings, and they were mounted "prooperly. They're way too expensive to be doing that too often. The 2 that I broke were the next step down, 16,000lbs I think. How many times do we use tools and parts in ways that they weren't designed, and yet the perform admirably?

I was going to mount that big sucker in your "proper" axis, but it would have meant another ENTIRE day of fabrication. So, it's not always that easy to make things fit. If your links can't be made to keep too keep pinion rotation to a minumum, you can easily max out the misalignment of a heim, even with the right spacers. There's no way I could have done it like that on my first edition of my front 3 link. Things aren't always as cut and dry as we'd like them to be.

 

[BrettM]

fair enough

I still see it like using .25 wall tubing on a cage to make up for design flaws, which if that's what ya gotta do, then that's what ya gotta do. Of course the weight of a 1.25" rodend isn't really comparable to many feet of .25 wall tubing, but the cost is somewhat prohibitive as well.

I can't imagine you having any real problems with that Overkill rodend, but I like to encourage people to do things the right way first, then if it just can't be done; throw more steel and money at it.

his link setup still scares me though, glad he's in Germany. I can't imagine that single-shear bolt lasting at all, especially if it's only through 3/16s. As also mentioned, the rodends on the crossmember end of the lowers are already near maxed out, and if he flexes it hard they will bind, then bend, then break.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

fair enough

I still see it like using .25 wall tubing on a cage to make up for design flaws, which if that's what ya gotta do, then that's what ya gotta do. Of course the weight of a 1.25" rodend isn't really comparable to many feet of .25 wall tubing, but the cost is somewhat prohibitive as well.

I can't imagine you having any real problems with that Overkill rodend, but I like to encourage people to do things the right way first, then if it just can't be done; throw more steel and money at it.

his link setup still scares me though, glad he's in Germany. I can't imagine that single-shear bolt lasting at all, especially if it's only through 3/16s. As also mentioned, the rodends on the crossmember end of the lowers are already near maxed out, and if he flexes it hard they will bind, then bend, then break.

mad maXJ, CHIL OUT... your hoseing up the whole thread.

Remined me not to ever ask you these questions:
Can pipe be used for a cage?
Can Full hydraulic steering be used on the street?
Can Heims be used instead of tie rodends?
What is better more Anti-squat or less?


If you want some never ending debates, search for those threads

 

[BrettM]

mad maXJ, CHIL OUT... your hoseing up the whole thread.

Remined me not to ever ask you these questions:
Can pipe be used for a cage?
Can Full hydraulic steering be used on the street?
Can Heims be used instead of tie rodends?
What is better more Anti-squat or less?


If you want some never ending debates, search for those threads

I really don't care all that much, not trying to get anyone worked up. Sorry your thread got hijacked. But I do have a genuine concern about the safety of XJoachim's 3 link.

that bolt is through only 3/16" of steel, and has a HUGE load being placed on it from 2 inches above that 3/16s steel. It simply will not last, and could be very dangerous when it goes.

have you ever seen a traction bar bend or rip off of an axle? or leaf-springs turn into "S"s? That's how much rotational force the axle is putting on that one bolt mounted on one side through 3/16s. Scary.

Remined me not to ever ask you these questions:
Can pipe be used for a cage?
Can Full hydraulic steering be used on the street?
Can Heims be used instead of tie rodends?
What is better more Anti-squat or less?

-Yes (with good pipe, bent properly)
-Yes
-Yes
-Depends on terrain and personal preference
:laugh3:




Now to hopefully give you some help with your project and the original intention of the post;

your original question was why 3 link or 4 link? they can be made to essentially have the same suspension characteristics, but people usually make double-triagulated 4 links with a higher, flatter roll-axis/center. The same can be done on a 3 link as you can see with XJoachim. Never seen it, and i've heard people argue both sides, but supposedly you can drive (limp) with one link missing on a 4 link. theoretically it makes sense, but would require a lot of rigidity and strength that most likely is not there. One of the big reasons to do a 4 link is that you can carry one spare link for all, if you make them all equal length. RudeZuk (Shane) over on PBB had 8 equal length links for his front and rear 4 links on his competition buggy, so they were totally interchangeable. One major advantage of a 3 link is the upper wishbone can be offset, so if you have a gas-tank or something on one side underneath you can still run your wishbone on the other side. This is what i'm going to do on my MJ so I can leave the gas tank in stock position.

If you haven't already, read through these:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7503
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168577
and a 3-link vs. 4-link thread:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=195397

 

[MaXJohnson]

You may or may not want to limp home on it, but think of the damage a busted wishbone could cause to the other links, brackets, u-joints, shocks, blah, blah, blah. Ask WanderingWilly how ugly it can get.

Having two triangulated links vs a wishbone eliminates a single point of failure. That's the short answer.

Not much difference in geometry.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

If you haven't already, read through these:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7503
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168577
and a 3-link vs. 4-link thread:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=195397

youll end up with soooooo may comments from fawkin morons that dont know shit, youll have to filter through it all. i had to read forever through all the posts to slowly figure out who the hell was a genuine person with some worthy knowledge and who was some jackass pulling his ass inards out and smearing it on the internet....good luck, youll love wheeling without axle wrap and hopping

LOL.. Classic.

 

[Fullsizexj]

ashmanjeepxj,
I am using a wishbone 3-link on the rear of mine, C-roc supplied me with the design for it and it works awesome, I would pm him and pick his brain about them. He has been using it for a long time now and has not had any problems, I only had one thing go wrong with mine and that is only because I did not get a good enough weld but 3 Batteries and some rods at the trail fixed that.

 

[XJoachim]

Lots of posts, thanks for all the input you give me.

First of all the heims are 1" chromoly, they will hold up to anything that comes up. The double sheer will be the next thing i will do on the hoop mount point and the hoop will be bolted to the pumpkin at the pinion part of it.

The heims of the lower links at the crossmember still have plenty of misalignment left. We lifted one rear tire about 5 feet from the ground while testing it and there still was enough misalignment available.

This was sort of a quick mod. We were sitting there and talking about the rear suspension and the next thing i remember were my leafs lying on the floor. :wierd: As my rear axle is still a bit located too much to the front i will remake the links in a 1.5" tube with 0.250" wall that i also have here.

The frame is reinforced at the coil rest with 3/16 u-profile.

Thanks for all your opinions as they help me make my rig better. I appreciate every sort of opinions.

 

[BrettM]

Lots of posts, thanks for all the input you give me.

First of all the heims are 1" chromoly, they will hold up to anything that comes up. The double sheer will be the next thing i will do on the hoop mount point and the hoop will be bolted to the pumpkin at the pinion part of it.

good to hear! all it takes is taking a littl bit of plate or box tubing to the top side, shouldn't take more than 1/2 hour and well worth the peace of mind

The heims of the lower links at the crossmember still have plenty of misalignment left. We lifted one rear tire about 5 feet from the ground while testing it and there still was enough misalignment available.

really?? sure doesn't look like it, but hey if you say so, cool

This was sort of a quick mod. We were sitting there and talking about the rear suspension and the next thing i remember were my leafs lying on the floor. :wierd: As my rear axle is still a bit located too much to the front i will remake the links in a 1.5" tube with 0.250" wall that i also have here.

I've been about an inch away from doing that about 10 times