11 Sep 2001

[Scott Mac]

I heard a quote recently (in the last few months) that went something like this
"U.S. solders, sailors and airmen didn't lose in Vietnam. The U.S. government lost the Vietnam war."
I don't recall where I heard that, but it stuck in my head for some reason.

 

[Eagle]

I heard a quote recently (in the last few months) that went something like this
"U.S. solders, sailors and airmen didn't lose in Vietnam. The U.S. government lost the Vietnam war."
I don't recall where I heard that, but it stuck in my head for some reason.

Oh, I quite agree. Those of us who were on the ground (and in the air) could have won, if we had been given a green light. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that went on. One example: I was with the 4th Infantry Division in the central highlands. Division base camp (the size of a medium city in the USA) was hit by mortar fire almost every night. We were not allowed to return fire because the mortars were set up in a rubber plantation owned by Michelin, and the French got upset if we blew up too many of their trees.

I could go on ... but it's depressing so I won't. But it's quite true that the Vietnam "conflict" (it wasn't a war because war was not declared, remember?) was lost for political rather than military reasons.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I don't have an answer to any of this shit, but I really feel for the National Guard and other folks that were forced into this conflict by our government. My brother in law is over there and I KNOW he doesn't want to be. Seems to me that national guard is supposed to guard the nation (USA), not travel all over the world doing the administrations dirty work. Actually, I don't think he is actually DOING jack shit over there. They aren't building schools or water plants or anything as far as I know. Jeff

 

[Kejtar]

but doesn't guarding your nation line have something about "foreign and domestic" in it??

I understand that it's sometimes hard, but then again when one joins up to any of the branches of the military service (and it is Army National Guard after all) one has to expect to be called upon to serve.

My many thanks go out to all that serve.

Remi aka Kejtar

 

[Eagle]

What I'm going to write will undoubtedly upset some of you. Let me start by reminding you that I am an Army veteran. I served when called, and I love my country. However, as the saying goes, I do fear my government, because it has become a government of professional politicians and wealthy insiders, rather than the government "of the people and by the people" that was intended by the framers of the Constitution.

There are three levels of military service currently available: The regular services (Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines -- and Coast Guard in time of war); the active reserves; and the national guard. Since Vietnam, the "gummint" has made a decision to reduce the overall size of the regular (full-time) forces. While this would appear to be in accordance with the ideals of the Founding Fathers (who did not think the government should have any standing army at all), it is a sham.

Why? Because Washington still wants to have the "benefits" of a standing army, without having a standing army. Read the recruiting information from any branch of the services, and all you'll see is a lot of fluff about how they'll give you an education, they'll teach you valable skills, yada yada. They all bend over backwards to avoid any discussion of the fact that enlistees are soldiers, who may at any moment be sent to some unlikely place to get shot at.

There have actually been a small number of desertions and AWOLS by service personnel who felt they had been deceived by the military when they enlisted. And there are huge numbers of National Guard who feel that they should not be where they are. They are probably correct. The National Guard is supposed to be the third and lowest tier in the hierarchy. Except in time of war or emergency, the National Guard belongs to the individual states. It seemingly makes no sense at all that we have federalized National Guard units and sent them to Mesopotamia when there are active reserve units still in this country. The reason is that the reserve units aren't the type of units they need in Mesopotamia, so they reached out to the Guard units to take up the slack.

What this means is that (a) the regular services and active reserves are under strength for the purposes the gummint needs ("wants") them for, and (b) there's nobody here at home guarding home base.

No matter how one looks at it, it isn't right, and it isn't smart -- but it is political.

Fire when ready, Gridley.

 

[STRYKER]

Are you still a special agent to the directorate vice president of the special assistance to the Pentagon Joint cheifs ?:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Not sure what your point is.....
Never worked for the JCS....

I did work on a security team at the Saudi Embassy in Washington DC from October 14, 1989 to July 17, 1992. I was called to accept an opening on Prince Bandar bin Sultan's team on July 2 of the same year. In late 1993, I worked for the Residence of the Qatar Ambassador to the US, and in 1994, I worked for Salmon Rushdie at a secure safehouse location on his visit to the United States.

I am very informed on the politics of the region, and was briefed daily on the possibilities that we might encounter. I have continued to follow the events in the region ever since my retirement from that arena.

If you have a valid or direct point regarding the topic of this thread, please toss it in here to be discussed in a civil manner.

 

[STRYKER]

What I'm going to write will undoubtedly upset some of you. Let me start by reminding you that I am an Army veteran. I served when called, and I love my country. However, as the saying goes, I do fear my government, because it has become a government of professional politicians and wealthy insiders, rather than the government "of the people and by the people" that was intended by the framers of the Constitution.

There are three levels of military service currently available: The regular services (Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines -- and Coast Guard in time of war); the active reserves; and the national guard. Since Vietnam, the "gummint" has made a decision to reduce the overall size of the regular (full-time) forces. While this would appear to be in accordance with the ideals of the Founding Fathers (who did not think the government should have any standing army at all), it is a sham.

Why? Because Washington still wants to have the "benefits" of a standing army, without having a standing army. Read the recruiting information from any branch of the services, and all you'll see is a lot of fluff about how they'll give you an education, they'll teach you valable skills, yada yada. They all bend over backwards to avoid any discussion of the fact that enlistees are soldiers, who may at any moment be sent to some unlikely place to get shot at.

There have actually been a small number of desertions and AWOLS by service personnel who felt they had been deceived by the military when they enlisted. And there are huge numbers of National Guard who feel that they should not be where they are. They are probably correct. The National Guard is supposed to be the third and lowest tier in the hierarchy. Except in time of war or emergency, the National Guard belongs to the individual states. It seemingly makes no sense at all that we have federalized National Guard units and sent them to Mesopotamia when there are active reserve units still in this country. The reason is that the reserve units aren't the type of units they need in Mesopotamia, so they reached out to the Guard units to take up the slack.

What this means is that (a) the regular services and active reserves are under strength for the purposes the gummint needs ("wants") them for, and (b) there's nobody here at home guarding home base.

No matter how one looks at it, it isn't right, and it isn't smart -- but it is political.

Fire when ready, Gridley.

Now, Eagle....
You know I have the utmost respect for you. That above all else, will never change. You've added a wealth of information to my base.....to say the least... (The vietnam rubber trees was the latest example)

But....
You could see in George Bush's face his unrehearsed, unbridled determination on Sept. 12..... SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO PAY.

There is no political agenda on this administrations docket....only preservation of all of us. You take the fight to the '"hood"....not wait for it to meet you on YOUR front step where YOUR family could be injured in the fight that will ensue.

I'm glad that there's someone in there to show the world that we're nor conquerers, but it's best not to @#$ with us when there's a remote chance that we might find out who was responsible....

I agree with you about the generalization....But I also think you're painting ALL politicians with a broad brush.

 

[Ronbo]

(SNIP) but I really feel for the National Guard and other folks that were forced into this conflict by our government. My brother in law is over there and I KNOW he doesn't want to be. Seems to me that national guard is supposed to guard the nation (USA), not travel all over the world doing the administrations dirty work.

No offense, but your Brother-in-Law was not paying attention very well when he volunteered to serve in the National Guard. He agreed to deploy on demand, as required. No one forced him into conflict.
I agree, a true domestic 'National' guard would be a good thing. Overseas deployment is the main reason I never continued service into the Guard. I did my time overseas, served my war, my time ended.
Any review of recent military activity outlines the mission of the Guard. They get tough duty too, just as active military personnel do.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Ok, I can't speak directly for him, but it was MY understanding that National Guard is for our Nation and not generally shipped off to WAR. I understood and pretty much agree with Eagle's note above. I guess I simply have a problem with WAR. I don't like it and would never want to be sent to a different country to kill or be killed. I think the Leaders should get together and shoot it out. Let the common folk be. I know this is much too simplistic, and I don't have any answers, but I still think that the armed forces should be made up of volunteers that want to do the bidding of their politicians and policy makers. If one doesn't think what he is doing is right, he isn't allowed to simply say NO in the armed forces (as far as this generally uninformed idiot knows anyway.) I'll go back to lurk mode again. Jeff

 

[Jeep Biscuit]

However, as the saying goes, I do fear my government, because it has become a government of professional politicians and wealthy insiders, rather than the government "of the people and by the people" that was intended by the framers of the Constitution.

Correct 100%

 

[Boatwrench]

Eagle,
It's a common mis-conception that the CG is not a military service, except in times of war. Congress authorizes the Coast Guard's transfer into the Department of the Navy in time of war. This has only occurred once, WWII. With the exception of the War for Independence, the Coast Guard has participated in every armed conflict this nation has been in and only during WWII was part of the Navy.

The Coast Guard is the smallest of the military services with just over 42K personnel including reservists. Coast Guardsmen are subject to the UCMJ and carry Armed Forces ID cards. The mistaken belief is because Coasties are under the Dept of Homeland Security and not DoD. The reason for this is because the Coast Guard's roots date back to 1790 with the formation of the Revenue Cutter Service under the Department of the Treasury to enforce smuggling laws. In able to enforce laws on the high seas without being an act of war the CG has been given broad law enforcement powers and that keeps us out of the DoD.

On March 19th, 2003 in the opening moments of the current gulf war, six armed Coast Guard boats (25' Boston Whalers) crewed by reservists navigated across the arabian gulf over seventy miles in the dark to support a US special forces operation, the capture of Iraqi offshore oil platforms. Within two weeks these same boats and crews escorted the first humanitarian aide shipment into the port of Um Kasar.

The unit responsible for the above was Port Security Unit 311 from Los Angeles, CA. They are home now but there are still Coasties serving in the Persian Gulf area alongside the other miltary services and I hope they all come home safely soon.

I just started my 3rd year on active recall, having been given four release dates since 9-17-2001. I understand the Guardsmen's frustrations being d*ck*d around also, and as a reservist and county employee I have more re-employment rights and job security protections than our nations National Guard members.

Back to the original posting message, may the families of all those lost in the attacks on 9-11 and defending Freedom find some kind of solace.

see you in Moab, drive safely from CT,
Tom

 

[sidriptide]

thanks for clearing that up tom.... if you didnt i was going to...
mike