Stroker or SBC305 for towing: more advanced turd polishing?

This is probably a loaded question for this forum but here goes anyway...

My "farm truck" is a `90 Chev 2wd pick-up with a fresh engine (305/700R4) and the rest of the truck is falling apart around it. Lots of rust, rear brake line is starting to leak, one of the front calipers is intermittently seizing "on" when parked for a few days, lots of other niggling things. Not sure why I bothered putting a "new" engine in it - but oh well.

I also have a semi complete carcass of a `89 4door XJ kicking around (4.0 RENIX, AW4, 242). It's a bit of a basket case - actually bought it for the engine to go into my CJ project. I have a 258 out of the CJ also (`79). All three engines have good compression, 4.0 is fairly high mileage (~250,000 km). Not sure of mileage on the CJ. I'd guess ~100,000 miles. ~10,000km on the 305.

So, being a bit of a flake I've been kicking around a few ideas on how to get around my soon to-be-lack-of-pick-up problem and was thinking about the Cheromanche idea but using a SWB MJ box/frame grafted onto the Cherokee "cab". Graft the MJ B-pillar to the XJ C-pillar is what I had in mind. Kinda like the "sport track" that was posted to the Extreme XJ/MJ thread the other day. I'd plate the uni-frame from the MJ box rails all the way forward to the front suspension LCA points. I have the tools and skills to do this - time intensity is a concern though.

If I did that I could haul the whole family when going to the hardware store and stuff. I could also get/make a slide in camper for the PU bed, tow the CJ or boat behind us when going on trips, that kind of thing. With the XJ it either tow a camper or sleep on the ground (Ugh, I'm getting too old for that).

Here's the question part (Whew! You actually read all that rambling?!)...

In your opinion which drivetrain would make a better tow vehicle? Neither is not an option!

Assume loaded with 5 people, gear, 1000 lb slide in camper, flat towing a 4000 lb CJ-7. Maybe add 1000lb for a vehicle trailer if you think either drivetrain can deal with it.

- 4.0 based stroker (4.5?), AW4, NV242, 3/4T D44 front, C14FF rear

OR

- 305 (stockish), 700R4, NV242, 3/4T D44 front, C14FF rear.

Am I nuts to even be thinking about towing something like that with these drivetrains?

Is the NV242 up to this kind of load? I'm guessing yes - most towing will only occur in 2wd. Should be as "sensible" as a 231 anyway.

If I do this that means my CJ project will need to get back burnered for a while. Sigh, just when I thought I was making progress on that.

Thanks for any/all constructive comments!

r@m

I'm not really very conversant with Chevy engines, but isn't the 305 more or less of a short stroke engine? That means it's better suited to producing horsepower at higher RPMs rather than torque at lower RPMs. This is pretty typical of all small block V-8s, BTW, not just the Chevy 305.

I think a well-built 4.5L or 4.6L stroker Jeep engine would be a better choice for the types of use you're describing. You would want to select the cam wisely, in order to maximize the "grunt" factor.

The 305 has the same stroke as a 350, 3.48" but it's a small bore engine. If it were me I'd probably stick with a stroked 4.0. I'm getting ready to replace the 2.8 in my 86 with a 4.3 but if it had a 4.0 I'd stroke it and use that. A 305 can be a good performer despite what some will say. 'm guessing that your 90 has swirl port heads and a peanut cam which is pretty typical of those years. A better set of heads would be 081 or 416 castings, and if you've got a factory roller setup, used lt1 roller cam with those heads could really wake it up.

vegeta said:

A better set of heads would be 081 or 416 castings, and if you've got a factory roller setup, used lt1 roller cam with those heads could really wake it up.

Click to expand...

You're never going to "wake up" a small block V-8 for heavy towing. Keep in mind the use described in the original question.

In my first reponse, I answered the question, which offered a choice between two specific engines (with the 305 being described as "stock-ish"). If we're going to drift into unsolicited advice, IMHO neither is an ideal choice for towing a heavy load around the country on a regular or even semi-regular basis. As much as I'm intrigued by the crew cab Comanche concept (Lawn Cher and I have been discussing this one for more than a year), a better vehicle for the use decribed would be a 2500 or 3500 Dodge Ram diesel crew cab.

But that wasn't the question.

I believe I answered by saying if it were me I'd stick with a stroked 4.0. I simply pointed out that with a few minor mods(compared to stroking a 4.0) a 305 would make a good towing engine. "Stock-ish" to me sounds like he's willing to modifiy the engine a little and I just offered some advice. An lt1 cam may not be what he wants for towing but there are other good cheap cams out there. A good set of heads is a good investment on any engine and the castings I mentioned are both cheap and work well for producing torque and horsepower. I'm no expert and I freely admit that but I do know a good deal about small blocks. Like you I just offered a little free advice. looking more closely at the intended usage I would say that you're right. A fullsize 3/4 or 1 ton diesel would be a better choice.

Skip the stroker, you've already got a fresh motor in the V8 which is a better choice anyway. With the amount of weight you're carrying and towing ( ~7000 lbs, yikes!) in addition to the rig itself, the 4.5 will be overburdened. I think people expect to much out of stroked 4 liters, sure they're an improvement over stock but in no way are they in the same league with V8's. If time is an issue then this project shouldn't even be considered, with the amount of time and cost in such an undertaking you would be better off selling everything and buying a vehicle that is suited to you're needs. You'll likely come out money ahead, not to mention the time and frustraton factor.TC

I can guarantee you're going to have cooling problems with a V8 and towing...

ZmOz said:

I can guarantee you're going to have cooling problems with a V8 and towing...

Click to expand...

What did you try to get your v-8 to cool? How much/often did it overheat?

r@m

Root Moose said:

What did you try to get your v-8 to cool? How much/often did it overheat?

r@m

Click to expand...

I don't have one, but I know that everybody with a V8 has trouble keeping it cool - and that's not talking about towing. Hell, it's hard enough to keep the 4.0 cool.

TC said:

Skip the stroker, you've already got a fresh motor in the V8 which is a better choice anyway. With the amount of weight you're carrying and towing ( ~7000 lbs, yikes!) in addition to the rig itself, the 4.5 will be overburdened. I think people expect to much out of stroked 4 liters, sure they're an improvement over stock but in no way are they in the same league with V8's. If time is an issue then this project shouldn't even be considered, with the amount of time and cost in such an undertaking you would be better off selling everything and buying a vehicle that is suited to you're needs. You'll likely come out money ahead, not to mention the time and frustraton factor.TC

Click to expand...

The 305 Chevy engine has a bore of 3.736" and a stroke of 3.48". This classifies it as a short-stroke engine, and short stroke engines in general are better suited for higher RPM horsepower rather than lower RPM torque, which is what's needed for towing.

Further, the 1991 spec for this engine was 170 horsepower -- LESS than a stock 4.0L Jeep engine -- and 255 ft-lbs of torque. The torque is slightly more than a stock 4.0L engine (225 ft-lbs), but far less than what a 4.5L or 4.6L stoker Jeep engine is capable of producing.

The stroker I-6s are very much in the same league as V-8s. For towing purposes, they are head and shoulders above a stock small V-8. Where they don't compete is in drag racing, where a short stroke engine is far better because it winds up faster and produces power at the top of the RPM range.

TC said:

Skip the stroker, you've already got a fresh motor in the V8 which is a better choice anyway. With the amount of weight you're carrying and towing ( ~7000 lbs, yikes!) in addition to the rig itself, the 4.5 will be overburdened. I think people expect to much out of stroked 4 liters, sure they're an improvement over stock but in no way are they in the same league with V8's.

Click to expand...

My 4.6l stroker is most certainly in the same league as almost any stock v8. 265hp and 350lbs/ft is on par with most v-8. People forget how light an xj is compared to a full sized truck. I have beat many "fast" cars at the local drag strip, a mustang, subaru svx ( I don't know how), a chevy half ton with a 383, tons of ricers........ My jeep is not a race car by any means but it holds it's own. I have a comp 250h cam and it makes tons of low end tourque. with stock valve springs the redline drops to 4800 but I top 80 in 3rd gear at 4500 and I really don't like to take it past that. Honestly I wouldn't feel safe towing that much with an xj, I would definately put dakotal leaves in the rear including the main and overload leafs, and hunt around the junkyards for the 28mm front sway bar and I would add a rear one if you don't allready have one. Polly bushings all the way around also.

Stroker recipe
'87 block, stock 4.0 rods,AP forged pistons, comp 250h cam, High Altitude CPS, Relocated IAT, '94 head (port and polished), 94 intake manifold, 62mm TB,HO exhaust manifold, 2.5" exhaust with glasspack,homebrew cold air intake, Melling Hi-Volume Oil Pump,DynaGear 3pc Timing Set, HO fuel rail, 24# injectors, MAP adjuster, probably more i can't think of.

There's a difference between figures on paper and real world use. A bored and stroked motor is going to run you at least two grand to build, and at that point you've pretty much maxed out it's power and torque for the type of motor you're wanting (towing). To get a substantial increase from that point on about the only thing to do is forced induction, another three to four thousand dollars. Now you've got over six grand in just the engine, you can buy a good used tow rig for that kind of money.
For the twenty-five hundred or so dollars that the stroker is going to cost ya you could build the 305 or swap in a 350 for the same or less and have a much better tow motor.
As far as beating "Fast" cars goes, I just can't see it happening in heads up racing unless they were having problems. Just out of curiosity, what kinda ET's were you turning? I raced my wifes stock/automatic '89 XJ several years ago and IIRC it was in the low 18's, just wondering how much of a difference the stroker made. If mine were an auto I would have taken it to the track by now for sure. I'm running the 250H cam also and it really falls flat at 4700 RPM, but that's OK because I built it for idle to ~3000 RPM gains, it rarely goes higher than that.
My XJ weighs over 5000lb going down the highway with all of the mods added to it. Add on another 1000 lb camper and towing 5000 lbs and I'd be screaming "Wow, I coulda had a V8". TC

TC said:

There's a difference between figures on paper and real world use. A bored and stroked motor is going to run you at least two grand to build, and at that point you've pretty much maxed out it's power and torque for the type of motor you're wanting (towing). To get a substantial increase from that point on about the only thing to do is forced induction, another three to four thousand dollars. Now you've got over six grand in just the engine, you can buy a good used tow rig for that kind of money.
For the twenty-five hundred or so dollars that the stroker is going to cost ya you could build the 305 or swap in a 350 for the same or less and have a much better tow motor.
As far as beating "Fast" cars goes, I just can't see it happening in heads up racing unless they were having problems. Just out of curiosity, what kinda ET's were you turning? I raced my wifes stock/automatic '89 XJ several years ago and IIRC it was in the low 18's, just wondering how much of a difference the stroker made. If mine were an auto I would have taken it to the track by now for sure. I'm running the 250H cam also and it really falls flat at 4700 RPM, but that's OK because I built it for idle to ~3000 RPM gains, it rarely goes higher than that.
My XJ weighs over 5000lb going down the highway with all of the mods added to it. Add on another 1000 lb camper and towing 5000 lbs and I'd be screaming "Wow, I coulda had a V8". TC

Click to expand...

First of all, you can easily build a stroker for under a grand. There are still alot of things you can do to a basic stroker to get more HP other than blowing it. 300hp isn't that hard. You might be "maxed out" there, but so what? Do you really need more than 300hp? Keep in mind that any "tow rig" that comes stock with a V8 weighs a HELL of alot more than an XJ - so 300hp in one of thme is like 350hp in an XJ.

BTW - stock 90 and newer XJ's are in the low 16's, my XJ is very lightly modified and is in the upper 15's.

TC said:

There's a difference between figures on paper and real world use. A bored and stroked motor is going to run you at least two grand to build, and at that point you've pretty much maxed out it's power and torque for the type of motor you're wanting (towing). To get a substantial increase from that point on about the only thing to do is forced induction, another three to four thousand dollars. Now you've got over six grand in just the engine, you can buy a good used tow rig for that kind of money.
For the twenty-five hundred or so dollars that the stroker is going to cost ya you could build the 305 or swap in a 350 for the same or less and have a much better tow motor.

Click to expand...

You persist in ignoring the parameters of the original question:

In your opinion which drivetrain would make a better tow vehicle? Neither is not an option!

...

- 4.0 based stroker (4.5?), AW4, NV242, 3/4T D44 front, C14FF rear

OR

- 305 (stockish), 700R4, NV242, 3/4T D44 front, C14FF rear.

Click to expand...

Of the two choices set forth in the question, the 4.5L stroker is without doubt the better choice for towing. A 350 might get into the same ballpark for tow capability, but the man doesn't have a 350, he has a 305 ... out of a pickup, so it probably doesn't have any exotic heads or cam or anything out of the ordinary.

Option #2 would still be the better choice. Once it's up and running and you find out the 4.5 is struggling to haul the 10,000 lb(minimum) load whatcha gonna do? You've already sunk a bunch of cash in that motor. If the 305, which you already have, needs more power then you can modify or swap it for the same or less money than a stroker build up. SBC to SBC is almost effortless. As far as building a stroker for under a grand, some have done it, but few if any have done it at that price without running premium fuel or having detonation problems. The Renix is more likely to be built on a budget than the HO due to the anti knock sensor, the downside is that it reduces knock by retarding the timing, which in turn reduces power. Why go through the trouble and expense of building a stroker just to have it restrict itself under a load, when you need it most? Once a stroker is built the other mods you make aren't that significant for the amount of money they'll cost.
The weight of the vehicle being described here will end up weighing close to a half ton truck. Grafting the MJ to an XJ is going to add a bunch of weight if done right ( frame, reinforcing etc). IMHO go with door number two. TC

TC said:

Option #2 would still be the better choice. Once it's up and running and you find out the 4.5 is struggling to haul the 10,000 lb(minimum) load whatcha gonna do?

Click to expand...

First, as was already said, the 4.5 is going to have about the same torque and HP as the 305. The 305 is only going to be a few CI bigger.

Second, I didn't notice the 10,000lb part. That is simply suicidal in an XJ. DON'T DO IT. Get a pickup. You CANNOT haul 10,000 pounds no matter what drive train you have. The trailer will be driving you. The wheelbase is MUCH too short, and the XJ MUCH too light. Not to mention XJ brakes suck. You will end up killing yourself, and whoever is unlucky enough to be anywhere near you.

ZmOz said:

First, as was already said, the 4.5 is going to have about the same torque and HP as the 305. The 305 is only going to be a few CI bigger.

Second, I didn't notice the 10,000lb part. That is simply suicidal in an XJ. DON'T DO IT. Get a pickup. You CANNOT haul 10,000 pounds no matter what drive train you have. The trailer will be driving you. The wheelbase is MUCH too short, and the XJ MUCH too light. Not to mention XJ brakes suck. You will end up killing yourself, and whoever is unlucky enough to be anywhere near you.

Click to expand...

Ditto that.
What he said.
See above.
I tow my 4500 lbs. boat 20 miles twice a year and I would rather wipe my ass with a cheese grater.
No good at all.
Why not just drop a stout drivetrain into a Chrysler Town and Country, then the kids could watch videos while you pull your boat, CJ, camper, and a 25 bushel hopper wagon.
Please advise us in the Midwest if you plan on traveling this way, as I have a family to protect and I don't want to be on the road with you.
Good luck, and Godspeed.
Hasta.

ZmOz said:

First, as was already said, the 4.5 is going to have about the same torque and HP as the 305. The 305 is only going to be a few CI bigger.

Click to expand...

It was not stated that the 4.5 would have about the same torque and HP as the 305. It was stated that a STOCK 4.0L has more horsepower and about the same torque as a 305. A 4.5L stroker will have GOBS more torque and a fair bit more HP than the 305.

Second, I didn't notice the 10,000lb part. That is simply suicidal in an XJ. DON'T DO IT. Get a pickup. You CANNOT haul 10,000 pounds no matter what drive train you have. The trailer will be driving you. The wheelbase is MUCH too short, and the XJ MUCH too light. Not to mention XJ brakes suck. You will end up killing yourself, and whoever is unlucky enough to be anywhere near you.

Click to expand...

10,000 pounds is someone's assumption of the total weight of tow vehicle plus trailer, not a 10,000 pound trailer. And the man is talking about grafting an MJ aft section behind an XJ cabin, which means the resulting wheelbase will be greater than a stock MJ longbed.

I think it's very do-able.

Where did I come up with 10,000 pounds?
5000 for the modified MJ/XJ (probably more)
4000 CJ
1000 Camper shell
1000 Trailer
1000 people and camping gear (could easily be more)
Looks like 12,000 pounds already. Like I said, give me the V8, still plenty of potential in it when you decide you need more power.I just don't see this being a realistic goal, you're asking a mule to do the work of a draft horse. TC
BTW, Thanks for the visual BG, I'll be skipping the grated cheese for a while.

Having gone through the dreaming stages of building the "ideal" XJ/MJ based tow rig as you describe, I faced reality and bought a 2500 turbodiesel Suburban. If you want a good tow rig within a reasonable amount of time with the least amount of headaches involved from such an undertaking, I suggest you offload some of the hulks you have and get something decent. Reliability and repairability are two important things to consider when establishing a vehicle for long loaded road trips.

Once you go fullsize, you never go back. I was using a '87 MJ 4.0 5-speed longbed for towing Jeeps and boats, and it was working hard. It was nice to occasionally use my wife's '01 XJ 4.0 AW4 just to let the tranny do the work itself, but the small size of the tow vehicle was still a source of nerves. Once I got the Sub', I have no qualms about towing heavy loads over long distances. It just makes the experience much less stressful.

I think you should be realistic here, it will let you enjoy your project CJ sooner, and provide a decent daily driver. I'm preaching from recent experience.