Zinc additives anybody?

[Shorty]

Lucas Oils makes a high Zinc additive for engine break in that should be available on the shelf of your local Advance as of this week. It's in a pint sized bottle with a black label IIRC.

 

[lawsoncl]

I didn't ask about the syn. I was told that the 4.0 is supposed to run oil w/1150-1175 ppm and that their oils (dino) have 1200 ppm.

I think there may be a typo on those MSDSs. Correct my math if needed, but wouldn't 2% be 20,000 ppm? I think it should be 0.2%.

2% of 1,000,000 = .02(1,000,000) = 20,000
.2% of 1,000,000 = .002(1,000,000) = 2,000

.06% to .12% would be 600 to 1200 ppm, right?

Er, yeah. I don't know how a %weight of ZDDP translates into actual ppm of zinc and phosphorus though. Maybe a chem major can jump in here. I did read another article that stated that 0.12% by weight of ZDDP was desirable.

 

[kujito]

I took it as x% mass. Weight (gravity) can change by location, but mass will not unless a portion of the substance is removed.
Let's assume that one quart of oil solution contains exactly 1,000,000 particles of matter. At sea level on a standard pressure day, that quart weighs 32 ounces. That quart would only weigh about 5.3 ounces on the moon because the gravitational force of the moon is about 16.6% as strong as the earth's, but it would still contain the same 1,000,000 particles. Also, a zddp particle will likely have a different weight (regardless of location) than a petroleum particle in the same solution. If we were to isolate the 1200 particles of zddp in the quart, they may weigh more than the same amount of the remaining solution.
Hope that made sense.
I'm not a chem major or anything of the sort, but I do have to perform a lot of conversions for school (GIS major) and work (mining company).

 

[Rick Anderson]

I was a little skeptical about this as I read it, so I did a search, some interesting reading, it opened my eyes.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html
http://www.revsearch.com/dynamometer/rollervsflattappet.html
http://www.synthetic-oil.com/TSB_Flat_Tappet.pdf
http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0702_camshaft_break_in/index.html

More than one recommended switching to Diesel Motor Oil, that it had the proper additives.

 

[seanyb505]

The problem now is diesel oils are losing their content these days. Every study Ive seen and read has been dated up to 2 years ago. Enough to have on the shelf oils reformulated.

 

[kujito]

The current Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance oils have 1200 ppm. Link goes to M-1's product data sheet.

EDIT: 15w-50 versions

 

[5.0 Junkie]

GM EOS. Engine oil supplement. ALWAYS add this or something comparable during flat tappet engine break in. 1/2 bottle with every oil change is probably enough. I have heard that they are discontinuing it, but heard most dealers still have it.

 

[thebrick]

Posted this in another thread...but here it is again..

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644

 

[Frank Z]

Ya except that new deisel oil barely has the zinc content of old gas oil.

I run rotella full synthetic and I like it but it still lacks a very high zinc content.

I used to run Rotella but my machinest told me that they were going to drop the zinc content and he started using Chevron Delo400. After a little research I found that delo400 contains 1200ppm of zinc.

For those that want to use an addative in their conventional oil but don't want to buy it on line. ask your favorite parts house to start stocking Bg MOA. It's loaded with zinc. Another option is to add CompCams Break-in Lube at a every oil change.

 

[lawsoncl]

I took it as x% mass.

The part I was missing trying to convert ppm of zinc and phosphorus into %w of ZDDP, is that the chemical ZDDP has much more than zinc and phosporus. You'd have to work out what percentage by weight of straight ZDDP is zinc and phosphorus. The chemical has lots of other carbons, oxygens, and sulfurs in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZDDP

 

[lawsoncl]

It's still too early for me to try out my rusty old college chemistry, I found this article on methods of making ZDDP. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6767871/description.html. A quick skim implies that ZDDP is roughly 9% by weight zinc and 8.4 percent phosphorus by weight. Using that with the RedLine MSDS sheets gives more reasonable numbers?

1-2% by weight ZDDP in their race oils =>
900 to 1800 ppm zinc
840 to 1680 ppm phosphorus

.6-1.2% by weight ZDDP in their regular oils =>
540 to 1080 ppm zinc
504 to 1008 ppm phosphorus

 

[JoshRountree]

Is it okay to run the higher viscosity such as the 50?

 

[seanyb505]

The current Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 Extended Performance oils have 1200 ppm. Link goes to M-1's product data sheet.

EDIT: 15w-50 versions

I was under the impression to stay away from synthetics for a couple thousand miles on band new engines. (Most strokers)

 

[gradon]

I might switch to m1 10w30 hi-mi(my previous fav) somewhere down the road(mines at 4800mi), but for now I feel safe with the 1500ppm Zn/13-1400ppm P Brad Penn 10w30. Sean--I don't know how many miles you should break it in on dino oil, but there's always the "it came from the factory w/ synthetic(maybe w/ additives) debate".

 

[Rick Anderson]

I've seen recommendations of running a NEW engine on conventional oil for 5 to 6 thousand miles for a break-in, before switching to synthetic. The idea being, synthetic lubes to well and prevent the development of good wear patterns.

That's 2 oil changes, you could probably just throw in 2-3 bottles of the STP Oil Treatment or use the diesel oil for the break-in before switching to synthetic.

The vehicles that did come from the factory with synthetic, Corvettes and Porsches are the only thing that come to mind, I've read that the manufacturer selected synthetic because the engine loads were so high and stress on the oil so much, that the oil would over-heat and these vehicles did NOT have the room in the engine compartment for a bigger oil cooler, thus the selection of synthetic was to combat the high oil temps (which synthetic does way better than conventional). Turbo cars as well, synthetic is a real advantage dealing with the high temps lubricating the turbo.

 

[xjman96]

I'm not sure I believe the STP claim. http://www.ctci.org/membership/Gilsgarage/EngineOil2.htm sent a sample out for analysis and STP has _less_ ZDDP than the motor oil its displacing. http://www.ctci.org/membership/Gilsgarage/docs/8_STP.pdf. Interesting to note that a sample of 1980s era oil also had less ZDDP than modern oils.

I thought I found a good solution, I was wrong. The STP is worthless.
I guess I have to order some ZDDPlus. I just changed my oil and used AMSOIL, expensive, I plan to keep it for a few months. Besides, I am not sure it is a good idea to go to a heavy oil like the M1 15W-50.

 

[88 Wagonman]

I used to run Rotella but my machinest told me that they were going to drop the zinc content and he started using Chevron Delo400. After a little research I found that delo400 contains 1200ppm of zinc.

All I can find of the Delo400 now is the low emission formula which contains very little ZDDP. I don't know if they still make the old formula, but I can't find it anymore.

 

[kujito]

UPDATE:

I just got this from Shell

If you are seeking higher zinc and phosphorous contents you may have to look to a racing oil. We have a product that is called Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 50, 60 and 25W-50. It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40. The zinc and phosphorous levels were recently reduced (from the API SL levels) as there has been concern that the oil that makes its way in to the combustion zone of your engine, carrying these anti-wear metals was burning and poisoning the catalyst in the catalytic converters.
Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical Information at 1-800-458-4998.

I didn't know that Shell/Rotella/Quaker State/Pennzoil were all owned by Shell.

 

[xjman96]

I need to get some ZDDP. I can only find it sold on ebay for over $10.
Is there another source?
I just did an oil change, so dumping the existing oil to use another is not going to happen. I need to add in additive.
If you have any ideas for additive only, not oil, please let me know.

 

[lawsoncl]

http://www.davidnavone.com/zddplus.htm
http://www.zddplus.com/distributors.htm

Still $10 a bottle.