XJ vs KL Cherokee, I'm dissapointed.

[tbburg]

Not so much in the resurrection of the name as in the lack of improvement in fuel economy.

I got bored a couple weeks ago and went down to harass the local Jeep dealer. A friend has a new Ram Powerwagon, and I'm really impressed with the integration of the electronic bells and whistles. Got me thinking I might be interested in a KL, or possibly the upcoming Renegade as a DD/crossover/highway cruiser. Anyway, I spent some time looking over a few KLs on the lot. They look much better in person. For some reason the front corner marker lights(yuck) are much less prominent in person then in photos. Mentally erase the marker lights and you can kind of see the "Rammified" version of a Cherokee grill in there.

Anyway, after squashing the whole "What can we do to get you in one of these today?" thing, I got the marketing brochure and took off. 'Came home and did a little research. That's where the whole "What the heck?" thought hit. The KLs get pretty bad mileage.

I looked up the info here: www'fueleconomy.gov

I road-trip plan 20 mpg and regularly get 21.(best was 21.9 ) According to .gov, the rating for the XJ (using the current system) is 14/19. The rating for the KL is 19/25-27. A little controversy here, Chrysler says 25, .gov says 26 for the Active-drive II system(read:Trailhawk).

I know it's not apples/apples, and I know the KL weighs more then an XJ, but 5-7mpg over how many generations of engine management development? Three or four at least.
We're happily lugging our 550lb anchor up front, archaic design, fixed timing, the full-on 2-speed transfer case, all encased in a brick. The KL has variable valve timing, three overdrives, god knows what's going on inside the computer, sloped everything, and it can pull 25-6 highway.

Am I expecting too much, or does that seem low?

 

[bjoehandley]

Well, it's not just a little weight, the KL is over 4000lbs in Trailhawk trim and also makes 100 more hp vs the Renix XJ's if you get the 3.2l (kinda disappointed that it doesn't get the 3.6l)

 

[XJLI]

i really want to get my fiancé into a renegade but she does not like it from the pictures. i can't wait to test drive one.

 

[bjoehandley]

I'm not sure on the Renegade too, the KL Cherokee is growing on me, the Trailhawk model in particular.

Kinda hoping that somebody will do KL Trailhawk in Lexan that's about the right size for my Traxxas Telluride now that I've converted one into a trail rig.

 

[Talyn]

Check out the various KL forums for electrical problems. They seem to have some major problems.

 

[SolarBell]

Put the ecoDiesel from the Ram 1500 in there and it would be really interesting.

I have a love/hate (mostly love) relationship with the electronics and integration in my new 2500.

 

[Cottontail]

MotorTrend gave it a second place finish in the 2014 SUV of the Year competition.

 

[bjoehandley]

Check out the various KL forums for electrical problems. They seem to have some major problems.

Don't see much of that with the new 200's, but how are the KL's with the 9 speeds when it comes to problems? There are some guys with the 9 speed 200's practically throwing tantrums over how their transmissions are working, and some of it sounds more like it's that the trans has to downshift so far compared to a 4 speed that it's not always as smooth as people think it should be.......hell, I still see that with the 6 speed auto transaxle and some owners.........

 

[Talyn]

9 speeds

Its a turd. Jerky shifts, some weird vibration on acceleration and 9th gear is only attained at 80+ mph going down hill. LOL.

200's

You mean the Sebring you always talk about?

 

[tbburg]

Don't see much of that with the new 200's, but how are the KL's with the 9 speeds when it comes to problems? There are some guys with the 9 speed 200's practically throwing tantrums over how their transmissions are working, and some of it sounds more like it's that the trans has to downshift so far compared to a 4 speed that it's not always as smooth as people think it should be.......hell, I still see that with the 6 speed auto transaxle and some owners.........

There are a lot of people crying about the newer transmissions. It's not necessarily a problem with the transmission, as much as un-met faulty expectations of the driver.

The CV transmission, which should shift continuously and smoothly, is being met with so much resistance that they're programming "shift points" into them so drivers can feel a gear change. Apparently the engine revving to a set RPM and just staying there as the car accelerates faster is too weird for many people.

I know what you mean about the jagged multi-downshift. I got ahold of a late-model BMW a while back and was not impressed with both the auto-throttle response and the 3-gear downshift before the car started to accelerate at highway speed. 'It's probably something we're going to have to learn to live with as long as we have cars with 3 overdrive gears.

 

[srmitchell]

I work at a Mopar dealer. We are pretty low volume in jeep sales (mostly Ram)... yet we have already replaced 4, 9 speed transmissions. 3 KL's and one 200. Not good.

I hate the way it shifts, and I hate the way they look... besides the Trailhawk, which is the most tolerable of them all.

Renegade hits the lots this spring... I hope it looks good in person because I like how it looks in photos.

 

[bjoehandley]

There are a lot of people crying about the newer transmissions. It's not necessarily a problem with the transmission, as much as un-met faulty expectations of the driver.

The CV transmission, which should shift continuously and smoothly, is being met with so much resistance that they're programming "shift points" into them so drivers can feel a gear change. Apparently the engine revving to a set RPM and just staying there as the car accelerates faster is too weird for many people.

I know what you mean about the jagged multi-downshift. I got ahold of a late-model BMW a while back and was not impressed with both the auto-throttle response and the 3-gear downshift before the car started to accelerate at highway speed. 'It's probably something we're going to have to learn to live with as long as we have cars with 3 overdrive gears.

That sounds like what I've been seeing on the 200 owner's forum, even on cars with the older 6 speed cars like mine. I haven't tried either of the new 9 speed 200's or KL's yet, but it took me a year or so to get used to the 6 speed, and the at times amazingly slow reacting electronic throttle (still would prefer a cable between the throttle and my foot) vs what our XJ's are like, but I can only imagine what this 9 speed has to be like if they haven't learned the driver's habits yet as well as not being used to the 3-6 more forward gears than everything else I've driven has had.

 

[bjoehandley]

I work at a Mopar dealer. We are pretty low volume in jeep sales (mostly Ram)... yet we have already replaced 4, 9 speed transmissions. 3 KL's and one 200. Not good.

I hate the way it shifts, and I hate the way they look... besides the Trailhawk, which is the most tolerable of them all.

Renegade hits the lots this spring... I hope it looks good in person because I like how it looks in photos.

What kinds of issues have caused those replacements? Especially since so much can be done with revising the trans computer's programing and make them feel very different in such a short period of time.

 

[Bryan C.]

What kinds of issues have caused those replacements? Especially since so much can be done with revising the trans computer's programing and make them feel very different in such a short period of time.

The dealer I work at does a lot of rental cars. The new 8 (RWD) and 9 (FWD) speed transmissions from ZF are crap. Low mileage failures and since they are new no repairs are being made in the dealerships. Just swap them out and send the old one back for inspection and failure analysis. I have done 3 KL transmissions myself, and I have a 200 waiting for a trans right now. And as I sit here I am updating another 200 TCM and rechecking if I need to replace this thing too. 9+ hours to replace a KL 4cyl trailhawk transmission. 7+ hours for the v6 model. And it takes every bit of that time and maybe more to replace these things.

I would shy away from these things until at least 2016 so they can figure out what is going wrong and update the parts/vehicles already in production.

 

[bjoehandley]

How many were rentals, that could be an big indicator as why those transmissions failed.

 

[UNCC_99XJ]

The dealer I work at does a lot of rental cars. The new 8 (RWD) and 9 (FWD) speed transmissions from ZF are crap. Low mileage failures and since they are new no repairs are being made in the dealerships. Just swap them out and send the old one back for inspection and failure analysis. I have done 3 KL transmissions myself, and I have a 200 waiting for a trans right now. And as I sit here I am updating another 200 TCM and rechecking if I need to replace this thing too. 9+ hours to replace a KL 4cyl trailhawk transmission. 7+ hours for the v6 model. And it takes every bit of that time and maybe more to replace these things.

I would shy away from these things until at least 2016 so they can figure out what is going wrong and update the parts/vehicles already in production.

My cousin just started working with ZF as a design engineer. He and I were talking about the 9 speeds for the chryco stuff a couple weeks ago. I'll have to ask him about these problems next time I talk to him. I could have sworn he said there were two different versions of the 9 speeds...one made by ZF and one made by Chrysler themselves. Could have that mixed up with another model though...

9+ hours to swap out a trans? That's absurd. But I see stuff crammed together in just about every new car now, regardless of the make or model. Some of the worst ones i've seen have been Hondas, and some of the best i've seen have been Toyota's. My 2013 Focus doesn't look too terrible to get around on compared to other compacts on the market now. Time will tell I suppose...

 

[Bryan C.]

Yes, Chrysler is producing their own version of the 9 speed. In typical Chrysler fashion they screw up a good design with their own cost cutting design changes. Sad really, the dealerships and the techs lose money while their profit margin increases.

I would like to hear what your cousin says about the Chrysler version.

 

[RedHeep]

I think that 5 mpg in the city and 6-8 mpg on the highway is pretty significant. I wouldn't consider that a failure in automotive evolution at all.

It obviously has it's issues, but from the mileage standpoint, you could have sold a lot of XJ's in the 90's at 25 mpg on the highway.

 

[srmitchell]

What kinds of issues have caused those replacements? Especially since so much can be done with revising the trans computer's programing and make them feel very different in such a short period of time.

Like Bryan said... lots of low mileage failures. 2 were rentals. I don't do transmissions, but my coworker Taj who is in the back shop with me, has done 4 now. I know at least two failed due to clutch issues. (The input/output speeds will be way off and the trans will just rev... setting a code.) Chrysler's response has simply been to swap the unit. We haven't seen one open, nor will we for a while I'd imagine. New stuff like the 8 speed (which is a great trans) and the 9 speeds go to unit... no rebuilds. And they the all-wheel models take a long time to finish, 9+ hours.

One was replaced in a KL because I found a leak at the case halves. It was pissing the clear 9 speed fluid (it smells like fish BTW) all over the front cradle. It went unit.

 

[tbburg]

I think that 5 mpg in the city and 6-8 mpg on the highway is pretty significant. I wouldn't consider that a failure in automotive evolution at all.

It obviously has it's issues, but from the mileage standpoint, you could have sold a lot of XJ's in the 90's at 25 mpg on the highway.

Actually, they sold a lot of XJs in the '90s at 19mpg, and yeah, 25 isn't really "bad" mileage for a 4wd SUV. My point is, the XJ was a dinosaur in '01 when they ceased production, and was behind the curve MPG-wise at that point. 25-27mpg just seems low at this point.

Interesting discussion about the trans issues. I've got a good friend that works for a high-volume Jeep/Ram dealer here in the desert. He hasn't mentioned anything about trans issues. His (current)biggest gripe seems to be emissions related codes/CELs on diesel Grand Cherokees. Maybe some kind of packaging issue, as the Rams with the same engine don't seem to have the problem.