Uttermost Off Road

[glfredrick]

You call this rock bottom? Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

You just explained everything.

So did you...

 

[TRNDRVR]

So did you...

How?

 

[glfredrick]

How?

You posted that, and have to ask? Come on now.

 

[TRNDRVR]

You posted that, and have to ask? Come on now.

Dodging the question I see. That's okay.

 

[glfredrick]

Dodging the question I see. That's okay.

Nope -- not at all. I have answered everything very openly. It is you that began with the cryptic statement.

 

[TRNDRVR]

Nope -- not at all. I have answered everything very openly. It is you that began with the cryptic statement.

Still dodging. If you think my statement was cryptic, let me clear up what I think you think is cryptic.

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

My first daughter died in 1998. She wasn't destined to live. That wasn't your gods will, it was a fact of medical science. That's also called reality. Life changing? Damn right. But in my book, if there was a god, the 'son of a bitch' let me down. Fawk him!!!

 

[rock rash]

I'd say that decision rests with you. There are alternatives.

One wise man once said, "To the unbeliever, this earth is as much heaven as they are every going to have. To the Christian, this earth is all the hell they are ever going to have." I'd choose to have a tad more heaven if it were me.

thats cool, you can go to heaven, and hopefully after not to many more lives, i will no longer have an afterlife...

 

[Fergie]

Brainwashed by whom? You obviously have never attended a church -- for as far as I can see, there are NO gates that hold people in against their wills. I'm a pastor. I was once a beer-swilling pagan like some of you are so proud to be. I've been in your shoes and I am now in my shoes -- I would not trade for a moment.

Been to quite a few actually, all Baptist, as that is what my wife and I are Baptized as. One of the few true Christians I have ever met was the pastor there. Pastor Steve Martin, well versed in the Book, and far beyond most Christians in his understanding of Christ and God. As for your pagan comment...so fralling what! Do you think you are better than me because I drink beer and live a good life, but not to your expectations? That statement right there is why I don't go to Church very often. You, and so called Christians like you are so brainwashed and blind to the real meaning of Christ's sacrifice and God's world.

And, we now finally get to the trump card so often played in debates like this. I always love it when the "so many people have been killed by the church" card is played, mostly because it is SO easy to defeat...

You forgot my first trump card. When was Jesus born, according to the Bible? Bet ya money it doesnt say anywhere in there He was born on 25DEC0.

I recommend that you take a moment and do some study about who has done the actual killing in the past couple thousand years -- though the "church" does not have clean hands, the actual purported killing by Christians is minimal compared to those that side with the atheist or pagan camp.

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Ethinic genocides in various countries. How about abortion clinic bombings and the like?

Your facts are very interesting, and highlight my point that religion, and most followers, are not of the right mindset as the original intention of the diety or prophet.

So, who brainwashed me into looking up actual facts and figures?

Rather than looking to Church and a book for you appreciation of God, why not appreciate the entire world around you, every day of your life. You look down upon and shun people that don't follow your dogma. Jesus wasnt like that.

Once again I ask:
Would you know how to live a good life and do what is right without the direction of the Church and the Bible? My thought is no, because you express your total reliance on Church and the Bible.

 

[DrMoab]

But in my book, if there was a god, the 'son of a bitch' let me down. Fawk him!!!

Funny you look at it that way. Your choice. I have a friend who lost his 13 YO in a car wreck a couple of years ago. His belief in God probably pulled him through it. He looked at is as that she was in a better place.

To each his own. Whatever floats your boat. It sucks either way. I hope I never have to live through it because I don't know how I would deal with it.

 

[glfredrick]

Still dodging. If you think my statement was cryptic, let me clear up what I think you think is cryptic.
My first daughter died in 1998. She wasn't destined to live. That wasn't your gods will, it was a fact of medical science. That's also called reality. Life changing? Damn right. But in my book, if there was a god, the 'son of a bitch' let me down. Fawk him!!!

Thanks... that is virtually EXACTLY what my wife and I said, yet today we are fully immersed in serving God in and out of church.

What do you think made the difference in our lives?

Also, I am definately not dodging your question. I assumed that you were coming at the discussion from a point of either hatred toward God, or agnosticism toward God, and I was correct in my assumption, hence my remark. Just like you think that you understand me, I think that I understand you -- problem is, I've been where you are, but you have yet to turn the corner that I turned... Get it?

Again, I ask, what was it that made the difference ultimately in our lives? What brought us TO God when we had decided very firmly that we would never so much as think of God again?

The answer to that question is just like I said above... God showed that He was both REAL and in control. He showed me in a number of ways that loosing a son was a small price to pay for gaining a life, and in any case, after over 20 years of advanced theological study, I have now come to a couple conclusions about God, faith, God's desire to build relationships, and the absolute goodness, love, and grace of God -- ALL THE TIME -- even when it doesn't seem so to us, from our perspective.

How about this biblical pasage by another hurting dad?

2 Samuel 12:13-31 (ESV) David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. [14] Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child who is born to you shall die."

[15] Then Nathan went to his house.And the Lord afflicted the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and he became sick.

[16] David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. [17] And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them.

[18] On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm."

[19] But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" They said, "He is dead."

[20] Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.

[21] Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food."

[22] He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?'

[23] But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."
​

Note that King David, even though he sinned against God with Bathsheba, was called "A man after God's own heart..."

Acts 13:22 (ESV) And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, 'I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.'
​

I take great comfort in knowing that God, through the words of King David, a man after God's own heart, said that I could go to where my son now is... That is the work of a good and gracious God, not the God I thought I knew (and perhaps the one you think you know) -- a capricious evil God. God is not evil. "He works all things out together for good for those who are called according to His purpose..." Perhaps this dialog is your "call." God does things through other humans -- that is His way. Test Him as I did and see if He is real. You might be VERY suprised as I (and my wife) was.

 

[rock rash]

koom-by-ya me lord, koom-by-ya

 

[glfredrick]

Been to quite a few actually, all Baptist, as that is what my wife and I are Baptized as. One of the few true Christians I have ever met was the pastor there. Pastor Steve Martin, well versed in the Book, and far beyond most Christians in his understanding of Christ and God. As for your pagan comment...so fralling what! Do you think you are better than me because I drink beer and live a good life, but not to your expectations? That statement right there is why I don't go to Church very often. You, and so called Christians like you are so brainwashed and blind to the real meaning of Christ's sacrifice and God's world.

But, have you ever given your heart to Christ -- or was yours just a mere religious exercise? It does make a difference.

It sounds as if you, at some time, took your eyes off of Jesus and turned them onto the people in your church. You WILL be disapointed if all you look at are the people -- not a perfect one amongst them -- I promise, and I'm also a God-fearing pastor. I'm certainly not perfect and can offer a multitude of examples to prove it, but that doesn't stop me from having a relationship with God, now does it?

FYI, It was not I that said anything about being "better" than anyone. If you took my comments that way, shame on you. You, of all people, should know enough about biblical Christianity to know that even if we are "saved" we are still sinners in need of God's grace each and every minute. That grace is what God's sacrifice is all about -- NOT a license to evil deeds -- and you know it. That's why you are angry with me. I'm pointing out some stuff that bothers your conscience.

You forgot my first trump card. When was Jesus born, according to the Bible? Bet ya money it doesnt say anywhere in there He was born on 25DEC0.

No I didn't -- it isn't a trump card. It isn't even a card at all, but since you insist on playing it, I'll go along with you... You are exactly right. Jesus was not likely born on December 25. In fact, we do not know the exact day (or even the exact year) that He was born. But we DO know that He WAS born, now don't we... Jesus is the single most attested figure in antiquity. Of all historical figures, there is more print about Him than all the rest combined. It is also not just the Bible, but there are many extra-biblical references to Jesus, His ministry, His death, and yes, even His resurrection.

The reason that we celebrate His birthday on December 25 is that the church needed a day, and the 25th was a day of new births (in particular of the Roman "sun" god) so when Rome became a "Christian" nation, it was sort of natural to assume holidays that were already in practice and "Christianize" them. December 25th was one of those. That doesn't make it less authentic, for Christ was born. Heck, I'll lay you odds that most of the people in the United States that were born before 1900 didn't keep track of their birthdays the way we expect either. It just wasn't as big a deal before the advent of modern record keeping and paperwork. Yet, each of them was born, lived their lives, and finally passed on.

Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Ethinic genocides in various countries. How about abortion clinic bombings and the like?

That is a mere drop in the bucket compared to Hitler alone, not to mention Stalin, Pol Pot, Cambodia, China, Cuba, etc. Far more have been killed FOR being Christian than by those who were Christian. Also, what of the Crusades? Do you know the actual history of the Crusades, or have you, like so many others that I've debated over the past couple of years, merely jumped on the bandwagon because someone said that we nasty Christians did all that terrible stuff? Why were there Crusades in the first place? I'll fill you in, just in case you didn't hear from somewhere else... The Crusades were the FIRST war on terror against the Islamic people. They had taken over the entire Middle East and were marching into Europe -- almost a repeat of the activities of this present day. Islam, for all their nay-saying has ALWAYS been a religion of the sword, and history bears that out as true. The Crusades were an attempt to liberate the Holy Land, and also to set the Muslims back into their own territory. Look it up...

The Spanish Inquisition was a sad blot on the life of the church, but it too has an explanation. You see, at that time, the church had almst totally divorced itself from the Bible. Bibles (if even there were any) were CHAINED to the pulpit of the church, and no one was allowed to actually read them -- not even the priests. What that meant was that priests ended up depending on the teachings of certain church fathers (other priests, popes, cardinals, etc.) who came before them -- but who had also not actually read the Bible. The actions of those carrying out the Inquisition were decidedly UN-CHRISTIAN in any way you might look at them. There is NOT A SINGLE LINE OF TEXT in all the Bible that makes it OK to do what they did -- not one! So, they were actually acting more like the infidels that they were trying to eliminate... Sad, but true.

It was into that sort of world that God raised up certain brave men, who had the guts to actually read the Bible -- and their eyes were opened WIDE when they saw how markedly different the practice of the church had become comapred to what God had commanded it to be. That lead to the Protestant Reformation, which in turn lead to denominationalism, and what we have today as the chruch -- some biblical, some not.

About abortion clinic bombings, I'm actually suprised that you would bring that up. There's been, what, a hand full? What about the MILLIONS of babies that have been killed just so that some couple doesn't get caught with their pants down? It is not right to bomb abortion clinics and the church has said so very publically. Those individuals are NOT seen as heros in the church. They are behind bars, where they should be.

Your facts are very interesting, and highlight my point that religion, and most followers, are not of the right mindset as the original intention of the diety or prophet.[/quote/

By what standard are you going by? "You don't sound as if you HAVE a standard, except what seems right to you. I go by the standard of the Word of God, without dividing lines. It is either all or nothing, for I'm not, and I don't know who is, smart enough to know where to divide it up into God's Word and other stuff...

Rather than looking to Church and a book for you appreciation of God, why not appreciate the entire world around you, every day of your life. You look down upon and shun people that don't follow your dogma. Jesus wasnt like that.

Once again I ask:
Would you know how to live a good life and do what is right without the direction of the Church and the Bible? My thought is no, because you express your total reliance on Church and the Bible.

What do you really know about Jesus and what he did? You don't seem to have a really great grasp on His actions, His words, or anything else, and in fact, you seem to be arguing that we ought not use the Bible. Where else do we learn about Jesus and what He said, did, wanted, ordered, etc., except in the pages of Scripture?

Yes, I rely on the Bible, and the church, but that doesn't remove my mind or my reason. Nor, do I look down on people. I just point out facts and let them do what they will with them... Hit a nerve, didn't I...

 

[glfredrick]

koom-by-ya me lord, koom-by-ya

Glad you know the words to that old song... I don't.

 

[creeperjeep]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
Just read that so I dont have to look at everyones copy and paste jobs...

Also, Id like to hear from some Mormons/LDS, just because I feel they were neglected in this thread.

By the way this thread reminds me of every conversation Ive ever seen with a born again.
The last born again argument I saw ended with him telling me that the bible goes back to the time of the dinosaurs and that man co-exsisted with dinosaurs and it was in the bible but, it was lost in translation......go figure

 

[WVXJ]

I personally don't see how anyone could think that a book like the bible, that has been revised and edited by many a man, could honestly take it, in its entirety, as the word of god. There was a guest philosopher at our school some years back who put forth the notion that King James was a self hating homosexual (there is some historical evidence) and the anti-gay rhetoric made the cut for KJ's version. Although Jesus himself never said anything anti-gay(most of his words are in red in most bibles i've seen) but somehow some of his disciples rendered his teachings this way. Just some of the ways certain things can be taken out of context. There are many more gospels which didn't make the cut, why? The gospel of Judas has recently been unearthed as well and paints the entire story completely in a different light. There is also the school of thought which believes the entire(or most of) christian faith was copied from the zoroastrians of a couple years before. Of course one could argue these and other inconsistencies with the book for ever, but what gets me is the base argument Uttermost gives for being a believer, is the FEAR of retribution from god IF there is one, which seems no good reason at all. That's like saying, "i spend all my money on the lottery out of fear of not being a millionaire."
All that having been said, i believe there is good in religion. One of my favorite quotes of Christs is something to the tune of, and maybe Uttermost could help me here, "be not as the hypocrites, you can pray anywhere, and I will hear." Which sort of destroys this whole corporate money making church thing we got going nowadays in the U.S.. Not to mention, every other channel on the t.v. is now religious based, in our own monetarily driven genres, it seems there's always some hidden agenda, that seems to deviate from the basic teachings of christ, which may lead some here to believe starting a jeep club for christ is just another gimmick or outlet for the degrading of a good mans teachings. Uttermost seems to be an honest and well read fella, hope he's not some Pat Robertson missionary with a quota to fill.

 

[moneypitxj]

funny how this all started. a fellow christian was just inviting people on a trail ride. people post political stuff on here all the time. there is never this kind of flaming about it. in politics an opinion is an opinion and nobody gets flamed for beliving anyway. now when relationships w/ God come up, people cant come up with enough bad things to say about the people who believe in God. as a Christ follower i feel i need stick up for my God. i dont look down on people for doing things that i dont feel is right to do. everyone will have there chance to accept Christ as their saviour. i just seems that this subject is so taboo.
i dont get how "love your neighbor as you love yourself" can get such a bad rap

 

[glfredrick]

I personally don't see how anyone could think that a book like the bible, that has been revised and edited by many a man, could honestly take it, in its entirety, as the word of god. There was a guest philosopher at our school some years back who put forth the notion that King James was a self hating homosexual (there is some historical evidence) and the anti-gay rhetoric made the cut for KJ's version. Although Jesus himself never said anything anti-gay(most of his words are in red in most bibles i've seen) but somehow some of his disciples rendered his teachings this way. Just some of the ways certain things can be taken out of context. There are many more gospels which didn't make the cut, why? The gospel of Judas has recently been unearthed as well and paints the entire story completely in a different light. There is also the school of thought which believes the entire(or most of) christian faith was copied from the zoroastrians of a couple years before. Of course one could argue these and other inconsistencies with the book for ever, but what gets me is the base argument Uttermost gives for being a believer, is the FEAR of retribution from god IF there is one, which seems no good reason at all. That's like saying, "i spend all my money on the lottery out of fear of not being a millionaire."
All that having been said, i believe there is good in religion. One of my favorite quotes of Christs is something to the tune of, and maybe Uttermost could help me here, "be not as the hypocrites, you can pray anywhere, and I will hear." Which sort of destroys this whole corporate money making church thing we got going nowadays in the U.S.. Not to mention, every other channel on the t.v. is now religious based, in our own monetarily driven genres, it seems there's always some hidden agenda, that seems to deviate from the basic teachings of christ, which may lead some here to believe starting a jeep club for christ is just another gimmick or outlet for the degrading of a good mans teachings. Uttermost seems to be an honest and well read fella, hope he's not some Pat Robertson missionary with a quota to fill.

Ah.. The "Dan Brown" (and other) stuff makes its appearance.

Sorry, but you are rather mis-informed about the nature of the Bible, but I have to go to work, and will have to wait until this evening to engage again.

BTW, it was NOT formed the way so many currently think (based on the things that are printed in the DaVinci Code, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, etc.). There is a LOT more to it than that. Suffice to say that we have 37 volumes of writings from the Early Church Fathers that suggest otherwise, and suprisingly no one seems to know about them.

More later...

 

[Fergie]

Glfredrick,

You illustrate my point in each subsequent post. Your beliefs are based solely on the Bible, and you have said so. You have also said, that without the Bible, you did a lot of worthless things that you regret. Hey, so have I, but it wasnt the Bible that lead me back to living a good life, it was just a realization that my current life wasnt cutting it. Your personal relationship with God and Christ does not need the assistance of the Bible, nor Church; It is in our heart, and God will know when you talk to him.

My basic philosophy is:
Whether you believe in God or not, live a good life. If you do believe in God, have the realization that you will fail, that you will screw up, and in the end, God will know whether you lived well or not. Accept everyone as Christ did, and show the world through your actions, not your words, that you can have a good life with God.

People who call themselves Christians should be scrutinized and questioned as they are typically the most shallow of all. Basing their actions on the Book, and fellow Church members, rather than doing what is right in their own mind and heart. Maslow would not approve of most people.

If you don't believe in God, you still need to live a good life. Dont be an ass, and infringe upon others basic rights. Dont let the majority of Christians and religious zealots out there define personal relationships with other religious folks.

So, back to my orginal idea throughout this whole thread, besides having an army of Jesus' on my jobsite, is that people will ask about religion, and find it on their own, when they are ready. Until then, leave it alone.

Fergie

 

[Glenn B]

funny how this all started. a fellow christian was just inviting people on a trail ride. people post political stuff on here all the time. there is never this kind of flaming about it. in politics an opinion is an opinion and nobody gets flamed for beliving anyway. now when relationships w/ God come up, people cant come up with enough bad things to say about the people who believe in God. as a Christ follower i feel i need stick up for my God. i dont look down on people for doing things that i dont feel is right to do. everyone will have there chance to accept Christ as their saviour. i just seems that this subject is so taboo.
i dont get how "love your neighbor as you love yourself" can get such a bad rap

Not true at all. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there have been many political threads here with plenty of flames and heated opinions.

 

[Badcop]

Also, Id like to hear from some Mormons/LDS, just because I feel they were neglected in this thread.

Youd think the IC chapter hasnt seent his one yet.....lol