Newbies Guide

[Jaynen]

So being the google obsessive car guy that I am the latest thing I am trying to convince my wife we *have* to have for *so* many obviously practical reasons :laugh: is a Jeep. I am partial to the XJ ever since I went off roading with my uncle at the impressionable age of 15-16 in one in the arizona desert. I believe it was pretty basic with a 4" lift, it left a great impression but I never ended up with one of my own. Some now 16-17 years later I am about to have a little one and my time riding dirt bikes and the like seems like it might be better spent doing something with my young family and getting to share some of those outdoors with them. But boys like to have fun so I can't limit myself to only family centric mild stuff. I have a few sort of generic questions that I have not been able to easily answer. If the information is collected somewheres please point me to it without flogging on me too hard for not finding it. The beauty and curse of the internet is there is just sooo much stuff on it. I see a proposed XJ as sitting on a spectrum. On the left is the stock XJ, on the right is the glassless, fully caged built to the max Jeepspeed 1700 machine.

I've heard some mentions of people driving Jeepspeed rigs to events but I haven't seen many full blown ones that seem to have glass in them?

Let's move the right side of the spectrum back to where the rig is JeepSpeed legal and can participate but is not necessarily a full time race rig, where does that put us? Can you run a rig that is still street legal? Can you keep any of the cargo area or backseat or by the time you cage are you pretty much 2 seats all the way?

If the progression of such a rig is going to be used for family off roading, trail duty, pre-running, chase work and general fun is it better to go with the auto which is generally considered better for wheelin? (isn't it?)

In what general order would you work on doing mods from stock? At what point when modding does the strengthening of the chassis become real important to keep the unibody from pounding itself apart?

A lot of what I have read says Jeepspeed is great because you can grow the Jeep as you progress much like trucks but nothing cohesive has been laid down in a single article. I apologize if this post seems a bit rambling as I have been mentally trying to organize my questions.

This link was great but generally is informative and offers no opinion and does not carry things on to the next step http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=257996

 

[DieselSJ]

There is a lot of outdated stuff in that article. Go to www.jeepspeed.net and start reading through the forums over there.

IMHO the days of building a "street legal" competitive Jeep are gone. When there was the Sportsman and Pro classes, then it was possible. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you can build a competitive racer that will also be street legal (at least not comfortably). You can run a rig that is street legal, but you have very little chance of being competitive.

Cage and frame/unibody strengthening first. Why? Because as soon as something tweaks or cracks, structural integrity is gone.

Not sure how much you can really "grow" it as you progress. You either build something that is race legal or you don't. If you build it to be race legal, there isn't much more you can do to grow it.

I'm sure there are guys here that will have differing opinions about it.

Go here and check our build pics for the new car -
http://www.facebook.com/pages/GadZooks-Racing/112853613279?ref=ts

 

[chris_amrein]

I think the biggest hurdle of making a car street legal and race legal is the fuel cell/tank. In California a fuel cell won't pass smog, but you need a fuel cell to race. I guess it may be possible to have both systems (factory fuel tank in the stock location and a fuel cell inside the cab) but you're taking on a weight penalty that affects your competitiveness.

 

[Jaynen]

You guys are very right, I had not put those thoughts together when I was writing this last night.

If we are talking about street legal pre-runner then a lot of the suspension and other things could carry over when you went full blown race correct?

The way I see it I would need to A) get seat time driving in the desert to learn how that works because riding desert is definitely not the same B) ensure my families commitment and interest before building a race vehicle C) meet some people who are racing and volunteer for pit crew and stuff like that for a while etc before really being in a position to build or race a competitive vehicle.

Because of needing to do those things first I just need to look at a vehicle that can get me set on my way and begin to learn about them, meet people, and develop driver skill.

Thanks for your answers I will start reading the build up on facebook and check out those other forums as well.

 

[whooprunner]

x2 what Chris said about the fuel cell. The only things I can think of that prevents a JeepSpeed being legal are fuel cell and maybe seat belts. Both of which you could get around. But in reality, you wouldn't be very comfortable driving in the desert or on the street.

I remember racing sportsman in 2003 with what is now the Hunt jeep 1777. We had all the windows in, stock dash, some interior, stock axles, A/C and working AM/FM cassette radio. LOL That jeep was street legal with the exception of the fuelcell, but man was it miserable with the required glass. All of the dust would collect in the cab behind the windshield and would swirl around since there was all the glass keeping it in. People went as far as cutting holes in the roof with moveable air scoops to blow the dust out. we ended up winning the sportsman class that year, but the average speeds are no where close to where they are now. You pretty much have to take any advantage you possibly can to be competitive now a days.

Sometimes I think JeepSpeed/Clive should bring back the sportsman or "stock" class so that it would be easier/ more affordable for people to get get a taste of desert racing, be competitive and still have fun. Maybe a JeepSpeed Stock Series that does a combo of the MORE / MDR series.

-Randy

 

[Jaynen]

The more I think about it the more I realize the racing angle is so far down the road its not worth looking at.

What I really need is a family friendly trail rig/prerunner. Then I can get to the dez have some fun, haul the family, do some trails and maybe help pre run or chase for some teams and get to know some people.

If going for more of a prerunner/trail rig is a ZJ going to end up being better for that? Go for the v8 or 4.0 6 on the ZJ or stick to the XJ obviously ZJ is going to have more creature comforts for the wife and baby girl

 

[H8PVMT]

might be just me but I wouldn't feel safe jumping sand dunes with my 2 yr old in the car

so......build up an awesome racer and then when it comes time to bring the wife and kid.....get another XJ!!!!!

 

[hawk_sixsix]

GREAT thread. I was about to post the same questions, Jaynen. I have a DD XJ that I'm *slowly* building for racing. While it will eventually be replaced by another DD, I always assumed I'd keep it street legal. I guess a good question would be, is there a class in JeepSpeed - or another race series (heresy!) - that straddles the line between street-legal and racing? Where is the most stock-like race class? I just want to race, put my license plates back on, wipe the windshield, and drive back to the hotel. If that means slower speeds, smaller jumps, and not requiring 10 grand in suspension work, then hey, that's fine. And street-legal doesn't have to mean street-comfortable.

I'm crossing over from the amateur car racing world; there's a class for every budget and legality.

 

[H8PVMT]

GREAT thread. I was about to post the same questions, Jaynen. I have a DD XJ that I'm *slowly* building for racing. While it will eventually be replaced by another DD, I always assumed I'd keep it street legal. I guess a good question would be, is there a class in JeepSpeed - or another race series (heresy!) - that straddles the line between street-legal and racing? Where is the most stock-like race class? I just want to race, put my license plates back on, wipe the windshield, and drive back to the hotel. If that means slower speeds, smaller jumps, and not requiring 10 grand in suspension work, then hey, that's fine. And street-legal doesn't have to mean street-comfortable.

I'm crossing over from the amateur car racing world; there's a class for every budget and legality.

you could go to the southeast and run moonshine :laugh:

 

[silverslk]

The XJ would be lighter and easier/cheaper to build than a ZJ (IMO). Heres a couple ZJ videos. One showing (according to them) how easy it is to bend a D30.....the other a little better speed video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFGk_42EV4o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJFgnhcwi2A&NR=1

 

[Jaynen]

Yeah XJ seems like a better platform and cheaper to start with but it has less creature comforts for the wife. Then again if we are talking about getting serious when it comes to a desert toy at some point the creature comforts will be gone anyway.

I was looking around at the FJZ80' toyotas also as they can come with lockers and straight axles.

Hawk I believe if you are caged you can run class 14 with pretty much anything, but the size of the rocks the faster cars throw up I am unsure of how long a windshield will last and I hear dust gets everywhere inside the rig. But class 14 is a sportsman class and has no prize money or anything, its also legal to run a trophy truck in it essentially so its not something to do for competition.

Like you I have a background in amateur motorsports from open track days and autocross, I have some background with the desert too on bikes but kind of wanting to move to 4 wheels in general and still include my family

 

[tbburg]

Something else to think about when it comes to the "street legal" race cars.

40-60% of the field in an average race don't finish the race. If you're going to go racing, you have to be aware that the car might not be drivable(who cares about legal) at the end of the race. You have to have a truck and trailer because you need a reliable way to get you and the car home.

Having said that, I believe the T&J 1701 "kit" car is street legal and registered for road use. Seems it finished 3rd in at least one race.
link http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1011761
So competitive and street legal is possible.

For "stock-like" racing, remember that most of the modifications you do to a Cherokee are unnecessary for rule compliance.
No rule says you have to strip the interior, glass, replace fenders, etc.
To race, the only things you need are:
A legal safety cage
Legal restraint systems
A fuel cell.

The rest of the rules generally limit what you're allowed to do, not tell you what you have to do.

The most "stock-like" racing classes I've run across are Best in the Desert(BITD) "pure stock" classes: 3100, 4100, 7300. We fall into 3100(mini-SUV class)
A 3100 class Cherokee could run in Jeepspeed, but wouldn't be competitive. A 1700 class Jeepspeed wouldn't meet the 3100 requirements(Jeepspeed allows a lot more modifications then the BITD Pure stock classes)
Link: http://www.bitd.com/

 

[Jaynen]

Thanks tbburg. I think for starters I just need a family friendly rig that can go more than 12 mph on the dirt out there in Ocotillo etc. Then I need to get to meet some folks/get to some events help out with chase or pits or whatever else and just learn lots.

I am not seeing class 3100 listed at all in the rule book. The only of the stock classes I see is 7300, looks like the merged all of the stock ones together

 

[tbburg]

EDIT: my bad, they still have a link going to the 09 rules. Looks like they did roll the 3100 class into the 7300 class.

 

[tbburg]

Thanks tbburg. I think for starters I just need a family friendly rig that can go more than 12 mph on the dirt out there in Ocotillo etc.

Expensive shocks are your friend!

 

[Baja_XJ]

Expensive shocks are your friend!

Except for when speaking about swayaways, they are the most expensive for what you are getting and perform the worst

 

[Jaynen]

The Bilstein 7100's sounded like the way to go in general, but im sure the Fox or FOA or whatever ones are good too.

I really need to convince the wife that we have room for a 3rd vehicle ;p