Goodburbon's hydrogen experiment

[ColoradoRaptor]

You had an undiagnosed leak on the cell, and the car was out of tune. You've changed two variables, one in each system. The results of the first run, and the beginning of the second one are worthless now. Refill the tank, reset the odo, and start over.

This is a real world test for the average person to see if there is any merit to the HHO system. I for one am interested to see how it all pans out in the real world, not in a controlled enviroment with someone wearing a lab coat. Staying tuned....:thumbup:

 

[winkosmosis]

This is a real world test for the average person to see if there is any merit to the HHO system. I for one am interested to see how it all pans out in the real world, not in a controlled enviroment with someone wearing a lab coat. Staying tuned....:thumbup:

Yeah but he noticed it was running bad so he made a lot of drastic changes that would cause him to gain fuel economy. There is no way now to know if the gains are from those improvements, or from the HHO. That's why he needs to disconnect the HHO and retest.

Even better would be to have someone else switch it on or off and not tell him, so he doesn't have any psychological factors, causing him to maybe drive a little slower with the HHO, or accelerate a little easier, etc.

You don't have to wear a lab coat to do a scientific experiment. A lot of great science has been done by tinkerers. The most important thing is to follow the scientific method.... it's the most powerful tool that humans have.

 

[techno1154]

Yeah but he noticed it was running bad so he made a lot of drastic changes that would cause him to gain fuel economy. There is no way now to know if the gains are from those improvements, or from the HHO. That's why he needs to disconnect the HHO and retest.

Even better would be to have someone else switch it on or off and not tell him, so he doesn't have any psychological factors, causing him to maybe drive a little slower with the HHO, or accelerate a little easier, etc.

You don't have to wear a lab coat to do a scientific experiment. A lot of great science has been done by tinkerers. The most important thing is to follow the scientific method.... it's the most powerful tool that humans have.

Hey winkosmosis,

Do you want to have a lab test do it your self. I would love to hear your results. Remember this; many lab tests that produce execelent results never make past the lab door.

Goodburbon, keep doing your test where it matters more. You have more suporters that you would ever imagine. Thoes who have nothing to contribute but assgas: do it somewhere else.

 

[goodburbon]

Yeah but he noticed it was running bad so he made a lot of drastic changes that would cause him to gain fuel economy. There is no way now to know if the gains are from those improvements, or from the HHO. That's why he needs to disconnect the HHO and retest.

Even better would be to have someone else switch it on or off and not tell him, so he doesn't have any psychological factors, causing him to maybe drive a little slower with the HHO, or accelerate a little easier, etc.

You don't have to wear a lab coat to do a scientific experiment. A lot of great science has been done by tinkerers. The most important thing is to follow the scientific method.... it's the most powerful tool that humans have.

disconnect and retest what? I have stated the mileage this car gets, it has been consistient for the last year that I have owned it. CHanging oxygen sensor, oil, belts, plugs, are all normal maintenance items and The car has had them changed before without magical results.

As for psychological results, I think this hydrogen theory is bullshit, I drive like it's bullshit, and I've gotten nothing but bullshit results so far. Placebo effect not happening here.

The scientific method is not completely applicable here since I cannot drive to and from work in a climate controlled environment, nor can I verify the consistiency of the fuel blend I am getting, nor can I hit exactly the same traffic every day, nor can I drive the same route every day (interstate closed yesterday due to an accident). Therefore I cannot with any reasonable certainty control all variables except one.

I can, however, hook this thing up and check my mpg, then compare that against the known mpg history of the car. Which btw has been rather consistient. I'm not going to stop maintaining my car so that all of the tests are performed with the same oil, nor am I going to ignore a fraying belt so I can get stranded on the highway but have an excellent scientific method. If you're not interested in the results because I can't control all other variables that is fine, feel free to conduct your own test and be sure to let me know how well that whole scientific method thing pans out in real world driving.

I control what I can and should, my driving habits and my consistient topping off of the tank. I make sure the unit has water in it before driving.

I do not have advanced diagnostic equipment for this car nor am I getting any. This is a piece of shit car that I hate, but I drive because it is cheaper to operate.

 

[winkosmosis]

I'm saying you should run without the HHO thing for a week now that you've tuned up your car, then the next week turn it on. I'm not saying you should keep your car in disrepair to keep the tests consistent, I'm saying if you change something, test the car both with and without the HHO. Obviously you can't control every variable, but that doesn't mean you should give up and go on gut feeling. Why test HHO at all? We all know HHO is BS, which is why your experiment should be as good as possible. If there is any flaw, those HHO nutcases will blame you for not getting results, and they'll keep peddling their garbage and gaining followers.

I just don't get what the big deal is. Why are you so resistant to running the car without the HHO again? Doesn't it just take disconnecting one wire?



techno1154... I don't understand why you are flaming me.

 

[goodburbon]

why, I already know what mileage it gets?

 

[winkosmosis]

You know what gas mileage it gets:
1) without a tuneup and no HHO
2) without a tuneup and HHO
3) with a tuneup and HHO

But you are missing
4) with a tuneup and no HHO

Is that right? I didn't read every post in the thread.

 

[goodburbon]

The car has had tuneups before.

 

[razdrvr]

I don't see the issue here. Goodburbon has established a baseline over the time he's owned the vehicle. Now he just needs some good data with good HHO supply. Why is this being so over analyzed? If you don't like his testing procedures do your own test. Thanks for the effort goodburbon.

 

[BB1980]

I am in the process of trying a homemade one on my 95 Chevy 2500 with a 305 sbc. I had just recently checked my gas mileage with nothing done to the truck and was getting a mega crappy 8mpg. I then just changed the fuel filter, O2 sensor, and both TBI injectors (were spraying horribly) since they were ALL the originals and the truck had 190,000 miles. I am finishing up this tank of gas to get the new mileage, but it is already WAY better. The truck should get around 10-12 mpg factory. My hydrogen generator is made with 3/16 stainless cables and pulls around 50 amps, but would like to get the amps down. It makes a ton of HHO right now, but I need to measure actual output/minute.

The whole idea isn't as far-fetched as most think. The principle isn't that you get something for nothing, but more getting something for CHEAPER. Its like comparing price and MPG of gas vs. Propane. They both burn, but one is cheaper than the other to refine. With HHO, you have to find the trade off between electrical cost vs. gas. If I make a generator that only saves me 2 tanks of gas over the course of a year, but wears a car battery out in that year, its still cheaper. My truck takes $80 per tank right now, but a new car battery is only $100, plus most have a 2-3 year free replacement period. Also, you have to look at the cost to keep a trickle charger at home (or a solar powered one) hooked to the battery to recharge it every night or every few days IF it is pulling too much current for the alt to keep up with. Even with the parasitic losses of the alt causing the engine to need more fuel than normal, It still depends on how much it drains the battery along with it and how long the battery will last. The battery becomes the extra energy needed. Depending on how much it costs to keep a battery recharged every night or two from home or solar during the day, It still could be alot or a little cheaper than gas alone.

To properly get the benefits, you have to look at cutting gas to the engine a bit. You start by getting your baseline Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) on just gas. Then you have to use some method of fooling the ECU to not put as much gas into the engine via tweaking the O2 sensor or depending on the car, the Intake Air Temp, Map sensor, MASS sensor etc. Since the engine will be burning the hydrogen now along with gas, you won't need as much gas. You have to tweak in small increments to make sure your EGT's don't start to climb (leaning the engine). I will start a thread of my own with results and steps I take even though my test vehicle will be my truck to start with. Depending on the results, I will do it on my XJ as well. Stay tuned!

 

[Ecomike]

You know what gas mileage it gets:
1) without a tuneup and no HHO
2) without a tuneup and HHO
3) with a tuneup and HHO

But you are missing
4) with a tuneup and no HHO

Is that right? I didn't read every post in the thread.

No, read the rest of the thread, he is not missing that data. He has over one year of min and max mpg data under most operating conditions. Besides when he shuts off the HHO unit at the end of the test, he can get additional data running with out the HHO generator right after turning off the HHO generator.

Speaking of reading the thread, this thread was started by Goodburbon to document his test, not to beat the basic suject to death. There is a thread in the OEM forum with about 300 posts in the last 3 weeks alone where we have been beating the subject to death, and that thread includes a substantial amount source info, and discussion as to why this device may have had possitive MPG effects in some vehicles, including some DOE research back in 1978 that reportely had positive results. If you want to discuss the pro and cons of the theory, let's do what Goodburbon asked us to do about 20 posts ago, and discuss it in the other thread and not here.

My compliments to Goodburbon on recognizing, finding and fixing both problems in the test vehicle ignition and the HHO generator.

 

[Ecomike]

The leak was below the water line, there fore there was no vac leak, and a tune up is within normal operation parameters for any car. A miracle cure like hydrogen should counter act a poor tune anyway..

I'm not re-doing the test, I will continue it though.

Goodburbon,

When engine vacuum is applied to the HHO generator it should be able to pull air in through the leak even though it was under water. I doubt you had enough water column height sitting on top of the leak location to overcome the lift effect or sucking effect of the engine vacuum. It would take a substantial height of water to seal that leak against letting air in when under vacuum. There are 2 feet of water per pound of water pressure, and engine vacuum is about 1/2 to 2/3 rds of atmospheric pressure, or about 7 PSI of vacuum, so you would need 7 pounds of water pressure, or 2*7 = 14 feet of water sitting on top of that leak to counter balance the engine vacuum. With the engine off it would leak the other way, letting water out slowly.

Not sure I agree with the analysis that the HHO miracle should counter act a poor tune. Even the hydrogen needs a bit of a spark.

:thumbup:

 

[goodburbon]

Goodburbon,

When engine vacuum is applied to the HHO generator it should be able to pull air in through the leak even though it was under water. I doubt you had enough water column height sitting on top of the leak location to overcome the lift effect or sucking effect of the engine vacuum. It would take a substantial height of water to seal that leak against letting air in when under vacuum. There are 2 feet of water per pound of water pressure, and engine vacuum is about 1/2 to 2/3 rds of atmospheric pressure, or about 7 PSI of vacuum, so you would need 7 pounds of water pressure, or 2*7 = 14 feet of water sitting on top of that leak to counter balance the engine vacuum. With the engine off it would leak the other way, letting water out slowly.

Not sure I agree with the analysis that the HHO miracle should counter act a poor tune. Even the hydrogen needs a bit of a spark.

:thumbup:

I stand corrected. It would indeed leak.

 

[goodburbon]

Oh and to the poster who is going to reduce the amount of fuel the engine is taking in, you'd need to test your mileage with just the lean mix and without the Hydrogen to see if the hydrogen is making the difference, or if you're just leaning out the engine as much as possible.

 

[BB1980]

Oh and to the poster who is going to reduce the amount of fuel the engine is taking in, you'd need to test your mileage with just the lean mix and without the Hydrogen to see if the hydrogen is making the difference, or if you're just leaning out the engine as much as possible.

I will be. I plan on testing all kinds of variables hopefully.

 

[Flash]

Goodburbon, did you read my comment, in the other thread, on hot glowing wire(Air flow sensor) Post 286
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=243981219#post243981219

Here is the link, for all that my want to add to the discussion,......... that caused this thread to be, in the first place.

Flash

 

[tbburg]

Goodburbon: Some of those 4-bangers stay wound pretty tight. Any idea what your average off idle RPM is?

 

[goodburbon]

Idle rpm is 900

 

[goodburbon]

Made a trip to Houston today.

Fill up before leaving:

10.67 gallons
256.5 miles\
=24.04 mpg

Fill up on the way home:
10.85 gallons
351.0 miles.
32.35 mpg


Of note:

I just discovered that the unit runs out of water in less than 100 miles and I only filled it up at the beginning of the 351 mile interval.

I cleaned and re-assembled the unit this past weekend.

I continue to get a rust colored film on the plates and the inside of the tube.

The only metal in the water is the stainless.

I am now running a mix of 1 teaspoon in about 1.5 pints of water, and not adding any additonal Sodium Bicarb when adding water.

I tested the output of the generator over the weekend and got 1 bubble per second, and it took 4-5 minutes before the bubbles were combustible.

 

[BB1980]

This is a personal best for your car, then right? Also, are you using distilled water or just tap? Tap water has impurities that will come out of the water during electrolysis.