3.5" lift... what all does it affect.

[rckymtnguy]

This is perhaps a discussion more than a question, and I am new to so if I am asking about things already answered somewhere else... please let me know.

My 99 XJ will be getting 3.5" of RE lift and 31x10.50s which by my calculations are going to increase my ride height by about 5.5" over where the XJ sits now. That changes the geometry quite a bit. Now... I am probably over thinking this, but my engineers brain starts asking "how does really affect things? " I want to believe that most of these the "factors" have been taken into account by the lift manufacturers so I should just follow the instructions and everything should be ok... "right"? I don't know about that one.

I'm in the process of rebuilding the front end and I run across the adjustable Ball Joints. So I am thinking.... why would I even consider those? What does lifting the front by 3.5" actually change about the geometry of the alignment? Do I need to have adjustable ball joints to correct for camber / caster changes caused by the lift?

How much trouble have you had with keeping your alignment straight after a lift like the RE 3.5" Superflex? It does include the lower control Arms, and I will be ordering the RE adjustable track bar, as well as replacing nearly every movable joint in the front end. ( debating on the UCA's now)

Should I consider the adjustable ball joints now to save myself some trouble later?

I realize I am not running this thing around a race track, but I want to do it right the first time. Is it in the original engineering from Jeep that makes them popular to modify the suspension or just good marketing by the manufacturers?

- thanks
JM

 

[xj-grin]

I think those are all really good questions if you insert "4.5" everywhere you have "3.5"... Seriously, the only thing I think you should consider that doesn't come with the RE 3.5 superflex kit is adjustable upper CA's, so that you can find the sweet spot between caster angle and pinion angle. That, and maybe an SYE, since late model XJs can be sensitive to lift and have some rear driveshaft vibes (I think T-case drops are a waste).

3.5" doesn't alter your suspension enough, in my opinion, to worry about adjustable ball joints -- good call on the adj trac bar, though -- while you may have a total ride height change of 5.5", only 3.5" is geometric, the other is just rubber. I would definitely replace all of the TRE's on the front, and if its high miles, maybe the ball joints too, as the changes the lift makes will accentuate any play they may have and lead to wobble. If you haven't picked up your kit yet, you should contact SeriousOffroadProducts.com as he is a supporting vendor (carries RE) and an all around swell fella.

 

[in4aride]

When you lift it the biggest change you'll notice is toe and caster. the adjustable uppers i would definitely do if you can. being able to set that caster is a great option and will keep good drivability.

definitely update the tre's. check unit bearings as well.

but i say as far as balljoints:
go.buy a lifetime or 3 pack alignment deal. don't replace balljoints and get it aligned after all the new parts so they can.set caster. keep your printout of alignment. if camber is fine, just do factory replacements. if it needs corrected and by.an.amount adjustables can fix. do the adjustable balljoints.

then get it checked again a few.months or thousand miles after finish install.

 

[djlarroc]

x2 on everything the guys said.. i think 3.5 is the sweet spot lift for the xj, and just right before the "can of worms" lifts.. and if you are willing to trim those fenders, you can fit 33s pretty easily later on..

 

[in4aride]

Have 33's. 3.5" RE stock arms on the sisters rig and no rub with about 1/2" trim on rear of front.fenders....

 

[rckymtnguy]

When you lift it the biggest change you'll notice is toe and caster. the adjustable uppers i would definitely do if you can. being able to set that caster is a great option and will keep good drivability.

definitely update the tre's. check unit bearings as well.

but i say as far as balljoints:
go.buy a lifetime or 3 pack alignment deal. don't replace balljoints and get it aligned after all the new parts so they can.set caster. keep your printout of alignment. if camber is fine, just do factory replacements. if it needs corrected and by.an.amount adjustables can fix. do the adjustable balljoints.

then get it checked again a few.months or thousand miles after finish install.

Thanks all for your input.

A little more on the caster? Why is that adjustment affecting the drivability the most?

Other than that..I get it.
TRE's- done... went with Crown HD steering setup.
Unit bearings - in the box.
Adjustable uppers, that I will have to look into cost... I am already WAY over budget.. of course! :banghead:

What shop is going to sell me do a lifetime alignment on a lifted Jeep?

Good stuff

 

[in4aride]

Caster will change steering input and.how it tracks down the road. ask grin about how different his wj was after we put a good Caster setting on.

firestone.does lifetime. have one on my.sisters jeep. i watch every part of the alignment process tho to make sure its done right. you'd be amazed how people can screw up toe and steer ahead

 

[xj-grin]

caster affects steering "feel" and most specifically your "return to center", i.e. how the wheel re-centers itself to go straight after a turn. You don't want to end up with less than 4.5* of caster in a lifted XJ, as IMHO the steering feel will suck. However, if you just focus on your caster, you could end up with the pinion angle being totally wrong, with the resulting front driveshaft vibes and fequent driveshaft ujoint replacements -- adjustable uppers will allow you to adjust this to find the compromise spot. Stock arms have a little cam/screw mechanism on the back side of the CA mount to adjust caster, but with your lift, adjustable arms are what you want.

You should be able to get a lifetime alignment at most any shop, so find one in your neighborhood you trust.

Edit -- simultaneous post w/ Mike.. and yes, his caster adjustment on my WJ made a big difference in how enjoyable it was at highway speeds to drive!

 

[Frank Z]

I'll go against the grain here and tell you that paying for an alignment on an XJ is unnecessary. You can do a great alignment in your driveway/garage with a tape measure. There a lot of righ-up's on and other XJ specific forums as well.

Point your Binger or Googler at XJ Alignment and get yer read on.

 

[xj-grin]

I'll half agree with Frank - I've set my toe in the driveway multiple times and it worked great (Mike, shuddap). I managed to set caster once with an angle finder, and it was totlerable... I'd rather have a shop set my caster so that it is consistent side to side and spot on -- now that I'm coiled all around (as opposed to non-adjustable rear leaves), its a shop thing for me.

 

[rckymtnguy]

I'll go against the grain here and tell you that paying for an alignment on an XJ is unnecessary. You can do a great alignment in your driveway/garage with a tape measure. There a lot of righ-up's on and other XJ specific forums as well.

Point your Binger or Googler at XJ Alignment and get yer read on.

Good point,
Its worth looking into, and I would probably check most everything I can to try and get it close before I took into a shop anyway. Most of them wont charge if they don't have to adjust anything. Although they generally find a reason to charge you.

With 190k on the existing Ball Joints I am thinking I going to go ahead and replace them, but not spend the coin on the adjustable ones until I find that I really have to have them. Seems like a waste, but if I never have to adjust them then it would be a waste anyway.

 

[Fred]

Once the adjustable ball joints are installed, they are set for life. The balljoints are pressed in, and it's an eccentric axis on the ball joiint. If they are removed and re-installed, they will never hold their position again. Been there, helped screw it up.

I'd replace the balljoints, and go ahead and install the lift. Set the toe, and see how it drives. Every XJ responds just a little different.

 

[JJacobs]

I don't know about driveway alignments, a good alignment machine will allow you to set toe to the hundredths of an inch. No way, no how are you going to duplicate that with a tape measure.
Trail rig? Crappy old tires? Knock yourself out.
Want the tires to last, pay for a real alignment.

 

[Frank Z]

I got a really nice tape measure.....

 

[rckymtnguy]

First off... .THANKS for all the input and advise. I completed the Ball Joints yesterday, that is another story all on its own, so I am almost ready for the real fun to begin! My RE 3.5" lift, adjustable track bar, shocks, and hardware will be ordered most likely before Christmas ( my plan right now is to buy from Serious Offroad in the Springs) I may order the shocks this week.. because they have a good deal on a 4 pack of Bilstiens. I still need to tackle the UCA bushings, and I am going to attempt to relocate the horns.

I also have aquired (craigslist) a rebuilt NP231 w/ SYE but it is a 21 spline and my Jeep is a 23. So I need to swap out the input gear. Would rather sell the old TC as is and just buy a gear to put in the rebuilt one, anyone want to help a fellow member out with that one? I'll buy the gear, but tear down and setup of the TC is something I don't want to screw up, I already have $250 in it. :nono: I will buy beer :viking:

I'm also going to need a driveshaft, and I have read that guys are able to use a front drive shaft, so I have to go figure out what will fit. I am not sure which SYE is on the TC, so I wont have measurements.

Here is a pic of the TC, anyone recognize this SYE ?

 

[time2getdirty]

looks like my standard aa sye. I have only been inside a few cases, but I can tell you it is super easy.

 

[rckymtnguy]

looks like my standard aa sye. I have only been inside a few cases, but I can tell you it is super easy.

I initially planned to pull the 23 gear from the stock unit. But, I would assume the stock TC is worth something as 23 spline so I can maybe break even buying a new input gear for the rebuilt unit and selling the stock unit and not having to tear down both units.

Which drive shaft are you running with the AA SYE?

 

[xj-grin]

I'd strongly advise against an attempt to re-locate the stock UCA brackets on the frame side -- they are made of layered and thin metal, and arent' worth the effort. You are far better off with a 3.5" lift in finding a way to afford adjustable UCAs.

I believe I have a 23 spline gear around somewhere, but he odds of me finding it before xmas are slim. I'll let you know if I do and you're welcome to it.

SYE looks like a AA or similar, standard 1310 yoke.

 

[rckymtnguy]

I'd strongly advise against an attempt to re-locate the stock UCA brackets on the frame side -- they are made of layered and thin metal, and arent' worth the effort. You are far better off with a 3.5" lift in finding a way to afford adjustable UCAs.

I believe I have a 23 spline gear around somewhere, but he odds of me finding it before xmas are slim. I'll let you know if I do and you're welcome to it.

SYE looks like a AA or similar, standard 1310 yoke.

I meant the horn,(beep beep) horn. Not the UCA mounts.

I got the UCA's out today, and I agree that I need to find a way to get new upper UCA's. I'll still have to replace the axle side bushings.

 

[xj-grin]

LOL -- I think its OK to relocate THAT horn. :roflmao: