XJ's in Competition! a new thread!

[FatXJ]

Oh I was just trying to emphasize a point. Actually I usually LFB (left foot brake) and dance between the brake and gas to maintain the balance of the slide. The dirt rally slide is nothing like an asphalt turn. First, do NOT touch the brake entering a turn or you'll do a nose dive into the trees. Also hitting the gas in a rear wheel drive will kick out the rear but I can take a turn almost twice as fast with the "rally slide".

Ok, lets say you're taking a fast left turn. Basically you turn the wheel to the right JUST before the turn (really more of a jab than a turn). Once you feel the weight of the vehicle start to shift to the outside (right), turn hard into the turn (left). This will toss the vehicle into a slide. This is called "setting it up" for the turn.

Primarily you are doing this to transfer the weight as it's the weight transfer that will steer the vehicle threw the turn, not the steering (ideally the front wheels are straight). Once you set it up, transferring the weight to the rear (more gas) will cause it to straighten out. Transferring the weight to the front (brake or lifting on the gas) will cause it to turn in. Remember if you apply the gas it's not to kick out the tires, just to transfer weight.

Sniped from a thread off a SpecialStage.com forum:
"Keep in mind that although basic car-control principles always apply, the basic laws of physics are different for dynamic (rally) and static (track) friction. Initiating, controlling, and ending a slide in rally is all about weight transfer, and with AWD while sliding a little lift on the throttle will cause turn in and a little press on the throttle will cause you to straighten out. Although weight transfer is an important principle on track too, the scope and scale are much smaller."

I know this is a confusing concept if you don't physically do it (kinda like riding a bike for the first time) but it is SOOOO00000oooooo cool when you do it right!
Let me know if this makes sense.

P.S. If you do try to test this you need a tire with a VERY strong sidewall but a minimum of 35psi on standard tires will start to give you a proper idea of this technique.

I always drive with my left foot braking!

And the point I was making is that you have to use the brake when going into the corner to scrub speed. If you don't then the rally flick, as I have come to know it, will not slow you down or work the way you want it to. I don't want people thinking that rally drivers never use their brakes because they do just not during the corner.


I could go on about my driving on 20 psi with no swaybars and a broken shock on the Delaware stage of the LSPR... but that was illegal so I won't.

 

[kreature]

I could go on about my driving on 20 psi with no swaybars and a broken shock on the Delaware stage of the LSPR... but that was illegal so I won't.

Oh yeah... that's sound all sorts of safe! :looney:

Once I snapped the links to my front swaybar on the last run of the day. I knew bad things were occurring but I didn't feel like letting up. People were telling me the rear end was bouncing over 2 feet in the air and on a couple of turns I spun the thing around on one front wheel. They said I was the first person to make a Jeep do a pirouette!

For the most part I'm not even aware of what I do (arms and feet). I slam into rocks and the thing makes all sorts of really bad sounds but they just fade into the background with the screams coming from the passenger seat.

My only regret is I didn't start doing this sooner!

 

[Dano]

SOunds cool guys!
there is going to be a SCCA Rally here in southern MO this month http://www.100aw.org . I will be going as a sweep team after the racers. I helped out last year and now I have a camera. Eventualy seeing XJ or MJs out on the course would be awesome!
Good Luck guys!

 

[JeepSpeedRacer]

SCCA Rules

One thing to remember about the SCCA rulebook: It's written very poorly. Plus, you have to read it several times to get the true meaning out of alot of important sections.

The earlier posts in the thread dealt with the displacement rules. All these rules are based on adjusted displacement. There are multipliers. If you have a rotary engine, the multiplier is 1.8. Therefore, the adjusted displacement of a 1.3 litre rotary is 1.3 x 1.8 = 3.24 litres. If you have a pushrod engine (like any Jeep) the multiplier is 0.8. Therefore, if you had a 2.5 litre engine x 0.8 = 2.0 litres adjusted displacement.

Here's the deal: For the Production Class, the displacement limit is 2650. You could actually use a 3.312 litre engine since 3.312 x 0.8 = 2650. A 4wd vehicle has a multiplier of 1.3. Therefore, a 4x4 XJ with a 2.5 litre engine could run in the Production class since 2.5 x 1.3 x 0.8 = 2.6 (which is less than 2.650! There are many other restrictions that make the XJ an unlikely competitor in Production, but my point is about how the rules work.

Production GT has the same chassis restrictions, but no limit on the engine size and no multiplier for 4WD. So, a 4.0 4x4 could work.

A 2WD XJ with a 2.5 litre pushrod engine could also enter in Group 2. Normally, this is for little cars. But, there are no chassis restrictions.

It's in Group 5 and Open that things get interesting. The only difference is Group 5 = 2WD, Open = anything goes. So, any JeepSpeed-legal vehicle could enter in the Open class (or if 2WD in Group 5). 6.375 litres max adjusted displacement.

There are also rules for the "RallyTruck" class. It's pretty much the same as Production, but with different weight limits.

So, knowing you could get an XJ or MJ into a rally event is one thing. Being competitve is another. From what I have heard, most of the eastern and northwestern events are on pretty smooth roads. In California however, the courses are pretty rough roads. The little foreign cars have to slow down for certain types of road conditions. A properly suspended XJ/MJ would not have to slow nearly as much.

In my opinion, I think an XJ/MJ could do very well in the CRS (Dave Turner built and drove an Open class-leading XJ). This kind of vehicle will do well on the rougher events. I don't think an XJ/MJ will ever hang with an Open Class Evo or Subaru on a smooth course.

For SCCA Rules: http://www.scca.org/amateur/performance_rally/03rulebook/Article10.pdf

 

[Weasel]

who ever was looking for a liegthweight flywheel Tricountry 4x4 have some that they run on their 4 banger rockcrawler.

I think a XJ or MJ could kick but in ralley racing. I'd have to look at the rules but lowered XJ with 31's trimmed fenders and about 8-10 of wheel trael would rock.

And the rally slide is so fun to do. First time I did it I nearly crapped my pants, such and adrenilane rush.

 

[kreature]

who ever was looking for a liegthweight flywheel Tricountry 4x4 have some that they run on their 4 banger rockcrawler.

I think a XJ or MJ could kick but in ralley racing. I'd have to look at the rules but lowered XJ with 31's trimmed fenders and about 8-10 of wheel trael would rock.

And the rally slide is so fun to do. First time I did it I nearly crapped my pants, such and adrenilane rush.

Oh friggin sweet man!
It was on my to do list to find one. Wait tricounty4x4.com is a club, who makes the flywheels for them?

As for the rally slide, hell ya. I drive a 30' box truck and I find myself setting it up for a nice slide as my hand reaches for the e-brake and then...
...and then I remember I'm driving a 30' box truck and the term "BAD" wouldn't begin to describe it.

However I've heard of some rally guys getting ahold of an old school bus and running the thing sideways around some nice wide turns. I would PAY to see that sh#t!
:worship:

I wonder what the adjusted displacement would be for a school bus!!!

 

[Weasel]

Tri County Gear was the one I was thinking of, but now I can't find it one their site. Pretty sure it was them though.

http://www.tricountygear.com/index.htm

 

[Dano]

there was an XJ running in the 100 Acer wood and Treaspassers Will rally Last weekend. I didn;t get any action pics but I talked to the guy and they are running a completly stock 88XJ with 4.0 open 30 & 35 with Pujo 5 speed & attached 231. he plans on swapping in a AX15. a good looking cage in it!
I should be able to get some pics up this weekend. :thumbup:

 

[kreature]

Re: SCCA Rules

In my opinion, I think an XJ/MJ could do very well in the CRS (Dave Turner built and drove an Open class-leading XJ). This kind of vehicle will do well on the rougher events. I don't think an XJ/MJ will ever hang with an Open Class Evo or Subaru on a smooth course.

The low center of gravity of a typical rally car will always take a Jeep in a smooth fast section but the Jeep can blast threw sections that the rally cars have to slow WAY down for.

I was thinking, what about a CORR type of an event? Or maybe an event that is still a timed rally (no car to car contact) but with a combination of fast sections with some rough 4WD areas and a couple of big air jumps? Maybe like a motocross course but between 3 to 20 miles. I haven't spent a lot of time at different race courses, does anyone know of a possible event/course that might fit the bill? Hopefully in the northeast.

Dano, could you tell me more about that event?

 

[Dano]

Last weekend's rally was a 2 day event. with thursday evening being the shakedown/press stage. I think there were 6 stages planned for Friday and 7 for saturday. The stages take place on mostly single lane some two lane gravel county roads.
I had been scheduled to work on stage 5 Saturday and got moved to stage 6 and got to "Transit" through stage 5. Even though I don't have a built rally jeep I was still flying through the course, but with a Jeep built for rockcrawling and trails I didn't push it. I would say I maintained an average of 45mph and at times reached 55 and 60 mph. With having my GPS loaded to the southern MO area I knew when the turns would be comming up.
I would say that a stock 4.0L would not be competitive enough in a race, but tweak it out, gears locker, chip and, any other engine upgrades you can do will help.
From seeing what cars were out there, anyone could defantly make a rally ar and race it but being competitive would be the hard part. the twisty turns would not be a problem but the straight aways would.
If you would like me to share anything else, let me know.
:farmer:

 

[kreature]

Sounds like a fast SCCA ClubRally/ProRally.

So what about a CORR type of an event? I know they have a sportsman class for poor people like us but I've never see a Jeep out there (at least on TV). To be honest I've been watching the pro rally guys run and I think they could take a CORR driver ANY day!!!

Generally CORR runs full size pickups with soft suspension and big engines. Looking at how they take the turns it's all wrong, they have to spin the rear end to the outside of the turn and hit the gas to push the truck to the inside. The rally drivers redirect the momentum of the car by making the suspension do all the work, not the engine. This is where the XJ might really have an advantage. If you take the skills from rally driving and put them to use on the CORR track with a light XJ and a flexy suspension but with good swaybars I BET you could zip around the inside of the turn and take the full size beasts.

When I started racing XJ's I was amazed just how fast the thing can take a sharp turn as long as I watched the center of gravity. Hell you can roll a CORR truck trying to parallel park the thing. WTF! :roll:

 

[Dano]

I will probably be checking out other events besides just this rally. Since it is 1.5 hours from home and I only knew about it the last 2 years I hadn't really known about any other races like it.
I would defantly like to check out anything like a rally and see how they run. Granted I would be building a rally car or anything.

Anyhting that's close to home I would like to check out.

I really don't know anything other than what I have seen at this rally here in MO. Sounds interesting and fun and would like to get into it a little more.

 

[Weasel]

CORR racing seems to be quite a bit different then what you might think form watching it. They seem to have pretty tight tracks and you can usually only get 2 truck wide through the coners. Also the track are very rutted and loose. I don't think a ralley car would do well as they would have to come off a jump then in a hard corner even with speed I think you would just slide off.

And CORR has some very good drivers. Curt Leduce(sp?) has done lots of racing.

 

[kreature]

I'm not saying that CORR drivers are bad just if you apply a different driving technique to a light agile vehicle you could make better times.

Remember when HUGE monster trucks were all the rage, they jump a line of cars make a U turn and race back. I remember there was a Nissan (I think) monster truck that was half the size of BigFoot and ran the course MUCH faster. But the fans didn't want to see a smaller Nissan, "bigger must be better" right! After a couple of shameful losses you never saw the half size Nissan truck anymore, I guess it was bad for the sport???

My point is bigger is not necessarily better. I think the little XJ could do quite well on the CORR track, it's proved itself on the rally course despite countless skeptics and I believe it could prove more skeptics wrong on the CORR track.
I looked it up, there's a stock class but very little info on it. Anyone out there know the rules, who knows maybe I'll give it a go. :cheers:

 

[aspera]

there was an XJ running in the 100 Acer wood and Treaspassers Will rally Last weekend. I didn;t get any action pics but I talked to the guy and they are running a completly stock 88XJ with 4.0 open 30 & 35 with Pujo 5 speed & attached 231. he plans on swapping in a AX15. a good looking cage in it!
I should be able to get some pics up this weekend. :thumbup:

I agree. I was shocked at how stock looking that Jeep was for a rallycar. IT was plain-Jane white and looked like an appliance. The cage was awesome. I asked the driver about it right before the start and he told me that one of the other drivers (Isuzu Impulse driver, I think) welded it up. Both of those guys were from Kentucky, I think. You can really tell the difference between a rally cage and an offroad cage. Rally cages rock!

Sadly, the XJ wasn't very quick compared to some of the other rally cars. I bet it would do better on a rough course like ROTW (Rim of the World) in Lancaster, California. It would be able to motor over boulders and water bars that slow down the EVOs and Subies.

It seems like Production GT is the best class for an XJ. My weapon of choice would be a 4.0L auto 4 door. For one, I already have one. XJs are common and cheap (compared to a professionally prepared open class car). Jeeps also have the advantage of low end torque, ruggedness, aftermarket support, and tire choice.

Tires: The XJ at 100AW was running pretty tame street tires. I'm not sure about the rules, but the sky is the limit on tires compared to the smaller cars. Just try fitting 265's on a WRX! The XJ has small wheelwells compared to most offroad rigs, but compared to most rally cars THEY ARE HUGE. That means acres of deep tread to grab the gravel and pull you out of a corner.

Torque: The XJ is all about low end torque. Combine that with the traction from the larger tires and you shoot out of the corners. EVOs and WRXs will still be able to maintain higher corners speeds, but the Jeep effectively has a wider road because it doesn't have to worry about hitting stuff on the edge of the road as much.

Rugged: Low-slung rally cars need underbody protection. That means aluminum skidplates and kevlar shields. The Jeep don't need squat. It can't be lowered enough to get close to anything that it is likely to damage it. Mudflaps are all that goes into the body armor budget.

Aftermarket: Jeep parts are cheap. Subaru parts are expensive. I can get new header bolts for my Cherokee at Autozone in the "Help!" section. I waited over six months for my JDM front bumper beam for my WRX.

I like the Cherokee 4 door auto because 4 doors allow better access to the rear when a cage is installed. I already left foot brake my automatic anyway. I figure the auto cuts down on driver workload. That should make for a faster and safer rally. Left foot braking lets the tranny stay in the right gear before the corner. Otherwise, an automatic would be a horrible choice. The Cherokee has lots of cargo room, so there would be plenty of room for all of the stuff needed in a rally car. Additionally, the XJ is already about 50:50. Moving all of the rally gear to the rear might help performance.

Normally, I'd say the Jeep should be as light as possible...but it might be worth it to use a heavy duty rear bumper/spare tire to hold down the rear. A Warn reciever hitch-mounted clevis would add more weight and be useful for getting pulled out of a ditch.

 

[aspera]

Last weekend's rally was a 2 day event. with thursday evening being the shakedown/press stage. I think there were 6 stages planned for Friday and 7 for saturday. The stages take place on mostly single lane some two lane gravel county roads.
I had been scheduled to work on stage 5 Saturday and got moved to stage 6 and got to "Transit" through stage 5. Even though I don't have a built rally jeep I was still flying through the course, but with a Jeep built for rockcrawling and trails I didn't push it. I would say I maintained an average of 45mph and at times reached 55 and 60 mph. With having my GPS loaded to the southern MO area I knew when the turns would be comming up.
I would say that a stock 4.0L would not be competitive enough in a race, but tweak it out, gears locker, chip and, any other engine upgrades you can do will help.
From seeing what cars were out there, anyone could defantly make a rally ar and race it but being competitive would be the hard part. the twisty turns would not be a problem but the straight aways would.
If you would like me to share anything else, let me know.
:farmer:

Did you have the Green one? Nice! Hey, did you see the Rover at the starting line. If I remember right it was bright orange and had Goodyear MT/Rs.

 

[aspera]

http://www.rivergate5speed.com/scca/rally/04_100AW.html

I just thought of something else to add. Lots of attention needs to be paid to dust and interior airflow. Being able to see and breathe is pretty important. The best approach would be to use a roofscoop. That way you pressurize the cabin with cool, clean air. That way air blows OUT all of the little holes in the body. I figure you could get a pretty good breeze just by removing the rear door seals. You could also fab some rear window vents like the EVOs use. Just crank up the window to install.