XJ wandering - everything seems correct.

[Talyn]

Yup. did the same calculation, and got 13psi There's no way that's anywhere near correct and arbitrarily adding N psi defeats the purpose of the calculation

LOL. I did the math for that too and came to 13 psi. 13psi is definitely too low so I didn't even bother posting.

 

[blistovmhz]

OMG. So after all that, I should give some back-story as to why you should never bother with RuffStuff TRE's .
I ordered the RS Chev 1 tonne steering kit. The ES2027L and ES2026R's are the high angle drag link TRE's. The also send what they call a TK234 (no differentiation between L and R) in left and right thread. Both the DL and TR ends have the same taper angle, but different depths. No problem, just ream the bigger ones deeper. Assembled and worked great, but noticed one of the TK234's had an unsealed boot, while the rest were all sealed.
Long short, all the sealed boot TRE's they sent me, failed. The one unsealed boot TK234 they sent, is fine.
They've replaced the other 3 TRE's again with the same sealed boot units, and they have all failed again, while the unsealed boot is still fine.
They replaced all the failed units, with more sealed boot units for free. When the replacement ES2026R failed again, RS wouldn't warranty and I gave up with them.

I ended up replacing their ES2026R with a Moog unit (also unsealed) and it's holding up just fine, but I still have a sealed ES2027L from RS, and it's now failing (barely noticeable, but it's definitely going) and the other sealed TK234 is also failing the same amount. Very probably is the source of all my problems.
Summation, all the sealed TRE's from RS failed repeatedly, while the unsealed unit is still fine. Strongly suspect they changed manufacturers due to the defect, but somehow they don't seem to think so, and refuse to warranty the clearly defective product. I argued that if the only unit that didn't fail, was CLEARLY a different unit (unsealed boot), then the problem was very likely their TRE's and not my setup. They disagree. I have another order open with them for some other stuff, but I'm cancelling it tomorrow, and also going to try to return the other 1 tonne TRE kit I bought from them for my buddies SAS we're building up, as I'm sure he'll have the same problem. Plus, you can get the Moog equivalents for 1/2 the price on Amazon, with 2 day free shipping.

Now the problem. No idea what the TK234 actually is. All I know is that it's got the same taper as the ES2026 and 2027's, just not quite as deep. Same rod size and pitch, same stud size and pitch.
I found the ES2010L and ES2010R have the same stud and rod size/pitch, and looks to be the same taper, but a little deeper than the TK234 (which is fine cause I can just ream out the knuckles a little farther), but as the ES2010's are a dodge application, I'm wondering if anyone knows what size vehicle these came from? I'm assuming, given the massive 7/8-18 rod, and 5/8-18 stud, that they're at least 1 tonne. Can anyone confirm?

 

[ocean_jet]

Had the same issue.

Tried a bunch of things but it turned out to be caster.

I adjusted my lower control arm as far forward as I could get them and it fixed it.

 

[planewrench]

OMG. So after all that, I should give some back-story as to why you should never bother with RuffStuff TRE's .
I ordered the RS Chev 1 tonne steering kit. The ES2027L and ES2026R's are the high angle drag link TRE's. The also send what they call a TK234 (no differentiation between L and R) in left and right thread. Both the DL and TR ends have the same taper angle, but different depths. No problem, just ream the bigger ones deeper. Assembled and worked great, but noticed one of the TK234's had an unsealed boot, while the rest were all sealed.
Long short, all the sealed boot TRE's they sent me, failed. The one unsealed boot TK234 they sent, is fine.
They've replaced the other 3 TRE's again with the same sealed boot units, and they have all failed again, while the unsealed boot is still fine.
They replaced all the failed units, with more sealed boot units for free. When the replacement ES2026R failed again, RS wouldn't warranty and I gave up with them.

I ended up replacing their ES2026R with a Moog unit (also unsealed) and it's holding up just fine, but I still have a sealed ES2027L from RS, and it's now failing (barely noticeable, but it's definitely going) and the other sealed TK234 is also failing the same amount. Very probably is the source of all my problems.
Summation, all the sealed TRE's from RS failed repeatedly, while the unsealed unit is still fine. Strongly suspect they changed manufacturers due to the defect, but somehow they don't seem to think so, and refuse to warranty the clearly defective product. I argued that if the only unit that didn't fail, was CLEARLY a different unit (unsealed boot), then the problem was very likely their TRE's and not my setup. They disagree. I have another order open with them for some other stuff, but I'm cancelling it tomorrow, and also going to try to return the other 1 tonne TRE kit I bought from them for my buddies SAS we're building up, as I'm sure he'll have the same problem. Plus, you can get the Moog equivalents for 1/2 the price on Amazon, with 2 day free shipping.

Now the problem. No idea what the TK234 actually is. All I know is that it's got the same taper as the ES2026 and 2027's, just not quite as deep. Same rod size and pitch, same stud size and pitch.
I found the ES2010L and ES2010R have the same stud and rod size/pitch, and looks to be the same taper, but a little deeper than the TK234 (which is fine cause I can just ream out the knuckles a little farther), but as the ES2010's are a dodge application, I'm wondering if anyone knows what size vehicle these came from? I'm assuming, given the massive 7/8-18 rod, and 5/8-18 stud, that they're at least 1 tonne. Can anyone confirm?

So..... I believe in your first and third posts you said everything was new or recently adjusted!?

 

[Vanimal]

So..... I believe in your first and third posts you said everything was new or recently adjusted!?

This.

BTW, i think you need to check for steering bind.

 

[blistovmhz]

So..... I believe in your first and third posts you said everything was new or recently adjusted!?

IT IS!!! HAhahaha.
That's what threw me. It's all brand new. Just installed the new TRE's like, less than a month ago. Must've just been shot from the factory this time. The play in the TRE's is barely noticeable, but it's there and while it doesn't look like enough to cause the pull, no point in thinking about it anymore until they've been replaced. Ordered all new TRE's (this'll be set number 4, but this time not from RS).

 

[GordoSmasho]

Start with the tires at 25psi. I have a light rig on 35bfg ats. It feels best to me around town and on the hyway at 23. Tread seams to wear quite well at that psi. Though I think I've already out lived these tires and am moving to something a bit more aggressive.

 

[a1racer]

Drill knuckles and pitman run heims had a steering setup with 3/4 with misalignment down to 5/8th and some dom with adapters cost was pretty cheap and it's held up for like 3 years now on my xj with 35's. No play no slop just clean them occasionally works great.

 

[blistovmhz]

Update on RuffStuff. Called today to cancel another order I had in with them for my buddies SAS build because order is just taking too long (was paid for almost two weeks ago, and still hasn't shipped and they couldn't give me an ETA). While I was on with them, I just mentioned that the remaining sealed boot TRE's from them have also now failed. So while they refused to warranty last time, this time they offered a refund on all the failed TRE's, which I think is commendable as I'd originally installed them in January, then gone through several sets of replacements, blah blah blah. I'm sure to them it sounds like I'm just scamming them for free stuff, but I just can't ignore that the one un-sealed TRE from them, and the Moog replacement has survived just fine.
Either way, RSS's other stuff is awesome, their prices are very good, and they do eventually warranty/refund defective parts, however grudgingly.
Hell, it was cheaper to order my DOM from them (in the US) to Canada, than to buy it at my local metal shop.

 

[eflores]

Sub'd

 

[blistovmhz]

So, while the TRE's were causing a little wobble, they were not the cause of the pull.
Checked thrust angle (rear axle) which looks good, but found my front axle has somehow shifted almost 3/4" forward on the passenger side. Don't see any frame damage and as I said, all the control arm joints are good, so I must have just some how messed it up myself.
I lined up the front axle with the rear, and now the pull is almost gone, but still there. I originally thought the pull was just always there, but now that it's decreased a bunch, it seems like it pulls left on acceleration and right on deceleration. When the front axle was way out, cruising torque was enough to cause the pull. Now that it's all lined up, I have to be accelerating or decelerating fast to cause it, but it's still there.
I can't think of any way to check the rear axle for square relative to the frame though, as there's no way to know if the frame is square .
I also can't figure out why thrust angle would pull me left on accel and right on decel.

Suggestions?

 

[blistovmhz]

So I thought I had a theory, but then realized something else, which just confuses things worse.

When I accelerate, the Jeep pulls left (usually) but the steering wheel moves right.
When I decelerate (engine power), the Jeep pulls right (usually) but the steering wheel moves left.
When I brake, the Jeep almost always pulls to the left.

If the brakes didn't also pull me I'd say the steering wheel moving left/right was being caused by the cross over steering/drag link lift effect. For those of you who don't know, with crossover steering, when the front end lifts, the drag link angle increases. This causes either the wheels to go left or the steering wheel to go right. When the front end comes down, the opposite effect is seen. Because the wheels are pretty firmly planted against the pavement, plus your caster is trying to keep wheels centered, the wheels usually win and the steering wheel moves left or right. When I did this build, I didn't think the effect would be so obvious, but it's almost painful to drive on the highway because every time I press or let off the gas, the steering wheel snaps right or left.

But, this only explains the steering wheel moving left/right, and doesn't explain why the Jeep actually pulls in either direction. There is no steering stabilizer, and the caster is correct, so the Jeep should track straight.
All I can think is that somehow this is either a thrust angle issue, but for that to be the case, the thrust angle would have to be to the right on acceleration and left on deceleration.
For example, if the rear drivers side leaf bushing (front of the leaf) was shot, on acceleration the axle pushes forward. This would cause the left side of the axle to move forward as far as the shot bushing allows, causing the axle to point right. This induces a 4-wheel steer effect that tries to spin the Jeep to the left, thus causing the left pull. On deceleration, the left side of the axle trails behind, causing the rear end to move left, causing the Jeep to spin/pull right.

This would make perfect sense except that I've checked all the leaf bushings, center pins, and mounts and nothing seems to be moving.

The other possibility I haven't checked yet, is a bad leaf wrapping more than the other. Because I've got a shackle drop, plus a 5" shackle, my diff points slightly up. When the axle is compressed it has to move slightly backwards, and when drooped it moves forwards. If the right leaf was compressing/wrapping a lot more than the left, as it pulls up on acceleration, it would move backwards slightly, causing the axle to point right, and on decel it'd move forwards and cause the axle to point left. I'm not sure if this effect can account for the rather strong pull I'm experiencing, but I guess it's the last thing I can think to check.

Any other idea's?

 

[hawkmantn]

I'm experiencing a similar wandering and throttle pulling symptoms from a 1 ton OTK setup with 4.5 RC long arms on 33s 4:88s with Detroit locked rear and Spartan front.. Unfortunately i'm in town only on the weekends and so I haven't had much opportunity to try things out... I will say that the first alignment shop I took it to a few months ago wouldn't align it because my wheelbase differed left to right.. I corrected that some and took it to a better shop but I still wanders after and pulls with on/off throttle.. I don't recall my alignment specs though right now...

From what I remember about the last few times I've driven it, MINE pulls to the right while coasting and pulls to the left when I accelerate with the steering wheel moving opposite...

Subd so hopefully one of us can find a solution and just maybe it will be the same problem!

 

[SolarBell]

Pulling one direction under acceleration and another way under coast is extremely typical of auto-locking differentials in the rear axle.

 

[x-jay vision]

So I may have missed it in a previous post, but if you are running a 3-link (or an IRO long-arm) your pull is almost certainly related to housing rotation on the front Turdy...

 

[blistovmhz]

I'm experiencing a similar wandering and throttle pulling symptoms from a 1 ton OTK setup with 4.5 RC long arms on 33s 4:88s with Detroit locked rear and Spartan front.. Unfortunately i'm in town only on the weekends and so I haven't had much opportunity to try things out... I will say that the first alignment shop I took it to a few months ago wouldn't align it because my wheelbase differed left to right.. I corrected that some and took it to a better shop but I still wanders after and pulls with on/off throttle.. I don't recall my alignment specs though right now...

From what I remember about the last few times I've driven it, MINE pulls to the right while coasting and pulls to the left when I accelerate with the steering wheel moving opposite...

Subd so hopefully one of us can find a solution and just maybe it will be the same problem!

So your symptoms are identical to mine. My alignment looks good. Caster is centering and is well within' spec, front and rear axles are centered correctly and square to each other (at least when I'm under the jeep while parked), toe is in 1/4" but I've tried everything from towed in 1/2" to towed out 1/2", drag link to track bar angle is within' 1 degree of each other, and the overall draglink/trac bar angle is only around 10 or 15 degrees. Everything in the front end is definitely tight, and there are no mysterious clunks or anything not accounted for by the lockers.

It's interesting though that you have the same issue. What about braking? Do you pull left (usually) on hard braking? Do you have bump-steer?


I need new leafs either way as mine are just too stiff for my weight, so I'll be able to rule that out soon (anyone got suggestions on a good leaf manufacturer? I've had horrible luck with leafs).

 

[blistovmhz]

Pulling one direction under acceleration and another way under coast is extremely typical of auto-locking differentials in the rear axle.

I thought this as well, but then had heaps of guys with front/rear lunchbox say they have no problem with pulling whatsoever. When I'm gearing up or down at highway speeds, no matter how light I am on the shift, it really wants to throw me into a ditch. I wouldn't let anyone else drive it for this reason. I'm used to it and even scares me once in a while.
I suspect that some guys get the pull for the same reason I have it, and some guys don't, because they don't have the same problem I have.

So I may have missed it in a previous post, but if you are running a 3-link (or an IRO long-arm) your pull is almost certainly related to housing rotation on the front Turdy...

I'm not really sure what my Long arm is considered. RC long arm. Lowers connect from CM to axle, uppers connect from the middle of the lower arm to the top of axle, and then we have a track bar. I think this is still considered 3 link yes?

Again, I've heard other guys with the same front end setup say they have no pull at all, so there's gotta be something that can be fixed. I thought for a long time that maybe my axle was twisted, but I just don't see any evidence of this either.

Why do you say "related to housing rotation" ? Do you mean caster, or just a ****ed-up twisted axle?

 

[yossarian19]

How did you check thrust angle?
How are your leaf spring bushings? Could a blown-out bushing be allowing thrust angle to change under load? Have somebody power-brake it and (careful to stay out of the way) watch them get on & off the gas. Look for movement in the springs / axle.
The pull changing direction under braking says "stuck caliper" to me. No guarantee.
It's time to bring it in for a 4 wheel alignment & spec-sheet printout. If you don't want anyone else to drive it, that says that it may be time to bring it to a mechanic. Preferably somebody with lifted 4x4 experience but a Jeep dealer should have guys who know the XJ well.

 

[blistovmhz]

How did you check thrust angle?
How are your leaf spring bushings? Could a blown-out bushing be allowing thrust angle to change under load? Have somebody power-brake it and (careful to stay out of the way) watch them get on & off the gas. Look for movement in the springs / axle.
The pull changing direction under braking says "stuck caliper" to me. No guarantee.
It's time to bring it in for a 4 wheel alignment & spec-sheet printout. If you don't want anyone else to drive it, that says that it may be time to bring it to a mechanic. Preferably somebody with lifted 4x4 experience but a Jeep dealer should have guys who know the XJ well.

Leaf spring bushings look and feel good. THey both seem to have about the same amount of resistance.
Calipers definitely aren't stuck, plus this is across 3 sets of calipers, now also including the brand new WJ akebono's. All new brake lines as well, and bled everything from the MC to calipers many times.
Thrust angle checked from multiple points. Diagonal rotor to rotor, parallel axle to axle, axle to bumper, axle to cross member, axle to frame locations. Always within about 1mm of each other every time.

I've not found an alignment place that knows more about 4x4's/lifts than I do. Most alignment shops in Canada will take one look at a solid axle and say the only thing that's adjustable is toe, and they don't know how to measure caster/camber/anything. I've even had several shops tell me they were positive caster was never adjustable on Cherokee's or any solid front axle vehicle Just useless. Either way, I'm confident my alignment is good, at least while the Jeep's parked. It has to either be an alignment issue that only appears under load, or a drive line issue with the lockers/tire size. But again, lots of guys with lockers say they don't have this problem, while lots say it's considered normal. Someone has to be wrong, and I'm goona go with the guys with the problems

 

[x-jay vision]

What you have is a y- link or radius arm. That disproves my theory if housing rotation so now I'm not sure. Is your camber the same at both knuckles?