WJ Knuckle Swap, trying a different approach
- Thread starter Team Willys
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5-Speed XJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Sunapee, NH
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
I got WJ knuckles waiting to see the swap and numbers on a u joint axle i have 98 unit bearings already!
atriot:
I got WJ knuckles waiting to see the swap and numbers on a u joint axle i have 98 unit bearings already!
atriot:Destroyer
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Milton, GA
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
I ended up switching from the Sport Trac rotors to redrilled WJ's. The sport tracs were ~3mm thicker which was causing my rotor centering issues. No more washers for me. My setup: WJ knuckles w/ JKS weld on spacer, 1999.5+ unitbearing (PN 513158 or TIMKEN PN HA597449), redrilled WJ rotors, Akebono calipers ground slightly to clear 15" steelies.
I ended up switching from the Sport Trac rotors to redrilled WJ's. The sport tracs were ~3mm thicker which was causing my rotor centering issues. No more washers for me. My setup: WJ knuckles w/ JKS weld on spacer, 1999.5+ unitbearing (PN 513158 or TIMKEN PN HA597449), redrilled WJ rotors, Akebono calipers ground slightly to clear 15" steelies.
- Location
- Wasatch Range
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
My setup is still problem free and stopping my Jeep like nobody's biz-ness........
My setup is still problem free and stopping my Jeep like nobody's biz-ness........
yossarian19
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Grass Valley, CA
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
Yeah... Unless I see some pretty compelling info, I think I'll use the JKS spacers & 2000+ bearings + drilled WJ rotors. Right after I pay off my student loans, etc...
Yeah... Unless I see some pretty compelling info, I think I'll use the JKS spacers & 2000+ bearings + drilled WJ rotors. Right after I pay off my student loans, etc...
crash02
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- hemet/san jacinto
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
so i've read all the pages and am curious if anybody has the dimensions for all the hubs?(2000xj,1998xj,2004wj) red and yellow arrows. if im following everything correctly the yellow arrows are important for u-joint center on the ball joint axis and the red is important for the rotor to caliper alignment. it's hard for me to get out much with all 3 kids so when i am able to get out i would rather be anywhere but the parts store waiting. i'm also sure it would help set in stone for others if the spacers are needed for just the 2000xj hubs or for both/all the 2000 and 1998-older hubs. i'm trying to gather all the parts needed for this swap and was also wondering if the tre tapers are the same as the stock xj dana 30 knuckles(i need to get ride of my rr setup fast and would like to only pay/buy once) all help/knowledge is appreciated, thank you
so i've read all the pages and am curious if anybody has the dimensions for all the hubs?(2000xj,1998xj,2004wj) red and yellow arrows. if im following everything correctly the yellow arrows are important for u-joint center on the ball joint axis and the red is important for the rotor to caliper alignment. it's hard for me to get out much with all 3 kids so when i am able to get out i would rather be anywhere but the parts store waiting. i'm also sure it would help set in stone for others if the spacers are needed for just the 2000xj hubs or for both/all the 2000 and 1998-older hubs. i'm trying to gather all the parts needed for this swap and was also wondering if the tre tapers are the same as the stock xj dana 30 knuckles(i need to get ride of my rr setup fast and would like to only pay/buy once) all help/knowledge is appreciated, thank you
rweaver138
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Brooklyn, CT
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
this is the exact same setup that i run with absolutely no problems. i would advise anyone to run this exact setup as it is tried and true
x2
this is the exact same setup that i run with absolutely no problems. i would advise anyone to run this exact setup as it is tried and true
crash02
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- hemet/san jacinto
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
not trying to argue but... the red arrows are offsets and the 2000 xj is1.907,2004 wj is 2.118,and the 1998 and older xj is 2.133. so with those numbers the 98 xjand older hubs match the wj hubs the closest. only .015 inch difference . the 2000 xj hub is .211 inch shorter/different(which i can see why the spacer is needed then). so what is the advantage to running 2000 xj hubs with a spacer? vs 1998-older hubs?
not trying to argue but... the red arrows are offsets and the 2000 xj is1.907,2004 wj is 2.118,and the 1998 and older xj is 2.133. so with those numbers the 98 xjand older hubs match the wj hubs the closest. only .015 inch difference . the 2000 xj hub is .211 inch shorter/different(which i can see why the spacer is needed then). so what is the advantage to running 2000 xj hubs with a spacer? vs 1998-older hubs?
Atl-Atl
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Castle Rock
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
This is getting us somewhere. What we really need is all 6 measurements in the pic I have attached.
If the difference between the 2000 hub and Wj hub is .211 and the spacer JKS makes is .250 inches the result is still an offset of .039 inches which is GREATER than the difference between the 98 hub and the WJ hub(.015). If these measurements are correct doing the 98-hub and WJ knuckle setup with no spacer is closer to stock than the 2000 hub and WJ knuckle with the JKS spacer.
This is getting us somewhere. What we really need is all 6 measurements in the pic I have attached.
If the difference between the 2000 hub and Wj hub is .211 and the spacer JKS makes is .250 inches the result is still an offset of .039 inches which is GREATER than the difference between the 98 hub and the WJ hub(.015). If these measurements are correct doing the 98-hub and WJ knuckle setup with no spacer is closer to stock than the 2000 hub and WJ knuckle with the JKS spacer.
crash02
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- hemet/san jacinto
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
i got the numbers from rockauto.com for the timken bearings.went to timken.com and could only find the 1998 hub flange offsets. here are the offsets(red arrows) 2000 xj1.907 ,2004 wj 2.118, 1998 xj 2.133
so i've read all the pages and am curious if anybody has the dimensions for all the hubs?(2000xj,1998xj,2004wj) red and yellow arrows. if im following everything correctly the yellow arrows are important for u-joint center on the ball joint axis and the red is important for the rotor to caliper alignment. it's hard for me to get out much with all 3 kids so when i am able to get out i would rather be anywhere but the parts store waiting. i'm also sure it would help set in stone for others if the spacers are needed for just the 2000xj hubs or for both/all the 2000 and 1998-older hubs. i'm trying to gather all the parts needed for this swap and was also wondering if the tre tapers are the same as the stock xj dana 30 knuckles(i need to get ride of my rr setup fast and would like to only pay/buy once) all help/knowledge is appreciated, thank you
i got the numbers from rockauto.com for the timken bearings.went to timken.com and could only find the 1998 hub flange offsets. here are the offsets(red arrows) 2000 xj1.907 ,2004 wj 2.118, 1998 xj 2.133
yossarian19
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Grass Valley, CA
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
Good question - though I think it would be unfair to assume guilt on the basis of incommunication, regardless of what our wives & girlfriends may think...
Good question - though I think it would be unfair to assume guilt on the basis of incommunication, regardless of what our wives & girlfriends may think...
crash02
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- hemet/san jacinto
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
FYI the spacer is not NOT for your brakes, you could just shim your caliper shackles and be fine. Think about it, most brakes are held by slide pins, so adding a set of spacers into the mix isn't as critical, the slide pins will bend off before the spacers deflect anyways, since radially the brakes have more slop than you'd imagine they would. Putting washers over the studs makes me nervous, but thats a brakes/hub/wheel issue, the spacer is for the stub/knuckle/hub issues.
OKAY, to explain, the distance between the shoulder on the inside of the hub internal sleeve and the inside mounting surface of the bearings are all the SAME. The only difference is that the internal hub sleeve of the WJ is deeper by small amount towards the outside of the hub (around .1, my fault, lost the exact measurements, but it was enough to prove it for myself so I didn't try too hard to hang onto them), this is why some WJ guys will use that spacer to run XJ stub shafts and leave the washer off the axle nut, because the WJ is deeper by about the thickness of the washer, or guys that are changing the lug pattern to a WJ hub STILL NEED THE SPACERS. You need it so your axle joint is aligned with the ball joints, not for your brakes.
Some guys may not realize they need the spacer, the axle can slide in and out a bit, and on the highway your not turning it as hard so the joint is strait when its going fast usually, but running without spacers is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm betting that if they haven't blown a shaft, within a few thousand miles if not sooner the seals on their axle are smoked from their U joints not aligning with the ball joints.
THE ONLY WAY to get rid of the spacers is to use early U joint style WJ STUB SHAFTS. since these are very hard to find, the spacer solves the problem, and allows you to use WJ knuckles and XJ stubs.
FYI the spacer is not NOT for your brakes, you could just shim your caliper shackles and be fine. Think about it, most brakes are held by slide pins, so adding a set of spacers into the mix isn't as critical, the slide pins will bend off before the spacers deflect anyways, since radially the brakes have more slop than you'd imagine they would. Putting washers over the studs makes me nervous, but thats a brakes/hub/wheel issue, the spacer is for the stub/knuckle/hub issues.
OKAY, to explain, the distance between the shoulder on the inside of the hub internal sleeve and the inside mounting surface of the bearings are all the SAME. The only difference is that the internal hub sleeve of the WJ is deeper by small amount towards the outside of the hub (around .1, my fault, lost the exact measurements, but it was enough to prove it for myself so I didn't try too hard to hang onto them), this is why some WJ guys will use that spacer to run XJ stub shafts and leave the washer off the axle nut, because the WJ is deeper by about the thickness of the washer, or guys that are changing the lug pattern to a WJ hub STILL NEED THE SPACERS. You need it so your axle joint is aligned with the ball joints, not for your brakes.
Some guys may not realize they need the spacer, the axle can slide in and out a bit, and on the highway your not turning it as hard so the joint is strait when its going fast usually, but running without spacers is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm betting that if they haven't blown a shaft, within a few thousand miles if not sooner the seals on their axle are smoked from their U joints not aligning with the ball joints.
THE ONLY WAY to get rid of the spacers is to use early U joint style WJ STUB SHAFTS. since these are very hard to find, the spacer solves the problem, and allows you to use WJ knuckles and XJ stubs.
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- Location
- Rainy side of Washington
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
I think you went a bit overboard but I agree in less strong terms...
I want more info on those early wj ujoint stub shafts. Never seen such a beast, and I would love to get my hands on a few. I like the spacer method more though, because shafts break more than knuckles when wheeling, and I prefer to choose which parts I customize and which I use in stock condition by junkyard availability - the commonly broken ones should be left unmodified.
I think you went a bit overboard but I agree in less strong terms...
I want more info on those early wj ujoint stub shafts. Never seen such a beast, and I would love to get my hands on a few. I like the spacer method more though, because shafts break more than knuckles when wheeling, and I prefer to choose which parts I customize and which I use in stock condition by junkyard availability - the commonly broken ones should be left unmodified.
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
I wouldn't have put it so strongly, but this thread keeps coming up, and the title is completely misleading. I love wrenching as much as anybody, but people forget that a car is thousands of pounds of metal and when steering and suspension breaks it can kill people. Thats really where the whole backlash against big trucks a few years ago came from, there are laws in a lot of states about bumper height and headlight height now, just to keep people from lifting vehicles (cali has several of these). Faulty work and not knowing what they are doing leads to really dangerous situations and innocent random people have been killed by improperly setup trucks failing on the highway and hitting them. Unfortunately its usually the victim car that sees the injuries when some jacked up f350 cuts their roof off. anyways....
AFAIK the U joint WJ stubs only came on the 99. I don't know how you would go about getting them now. A lot of WJ guys talk about getting them, then strike out actually finding them (as did I) for any reasonable price, it was over a decade ago they were made and just for a year, and when they snap your back to square one. I even tried to order shafts, but they came in as CVs, even some of the ones that say they are U jointed. the WJ guys are the ones I heard about pulling the washer, then they pay to get chromo axle shafts custom made, but atleast then the stubs go first and they can replace those cheap.
I wouldn't have put it so strongly, but this thread keeps coming up, and the title is completely misleading. I love wrenching as much as anybody, but people forget that a car is thousands of pounds of metal and when steering and suspension breaks it can kill people. Thats really where the whole backlash against big trucks a few years ago came from, there are laws in a lot of states about bumper height and headlight height now, just to keep people from lifting vehicles (cali has several of these). Faulty work and not knowing what they are doing leads to really dangerous situations and innocent random people have been killed by improperly setup trucks failing on the highway and hitting them. Unfortunately its usually the victim car that sees the injuries when some jacked up f350 cuts their roof off. anyways....
AFAIK the U joint WJ stubs only came on the 99. I don't know how you would go about getting them now. A lot of WJ guys talk about getting them, then strike out actually finding them (as did I) for any reasonable price, it was over a decade ago they were made and just for a year, and when they snap your back to square one. I even tried to order shafts, but they came in as CVs, even some of the ones that say they are U jointed. the WJ guys are the ones I heard about pulling the washer, then they pay to get chromo axle shafts custom made, but atleast then the stubs go first and they can replace those cheap.
Talyn
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Radford, Communistwealth of Virginia
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
x2 I agree with what you stated, i.e. the spacer is to keep the u-joint axis in line with the knuckle axis... but you could have been a bit less abrasive.
I wonder if RCV makes a high strength cv joint for the WJ... RCV joint + WJ brakes and knuckle + XJ sized axle half shafts sounds like it might work... if it exists.
On the stub shafts I believe they would be found on non quadra 4x4 systems. Like on the 231/242 transfer case WJs... much like the ZJ.
x2 I agree with what you stated, i.e. the spacer is to keep the u-joint axis in line with the knuckle axis... but you could have been a bit less abrasive.
I wonder if RCV makes a high strength cv joint for the WJ... RCV joint + WJ brakes and knuckle + XJ sized axle half shafts sounds like it might work... if it exists.
On the stub shafts I believe they would be found on non quadra 4x4 systems. Like on the 231/242 transfer case WJs... much like the ZJ.
crash02
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- hemet/san jacinto
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
thank you all for helping put all this into perspective/explaining alittle more on the inside dims and what not. so just to be clear. to swap wj knuckles on my d30 i will need wj stuff ,wj lower ball joints,spacers, and 98 or 2000 xj hubs?
my other question from earlier is... the tapers for the tres. are they the same as the xj or zj? so if i buy a zj drag link and tie rod setup from a v8 will i be able to reuse the tie rod ends? i know i will need to make a new drag link and tie rod for the knuckle setup.
thank you all for helping put all this into perspective/explaining alittle more on the inside dims and what not. so just to be clear. to swap wj knuckles on my d30 i will need wj stuff ,wj lower ball joints,spacers, and 98 or 2000 xj hubs?
my other question from earlier is... the tapers for the tres. are they the same as the xj or zj? so if i buy a zj drag link and tie rod setup from a v8 will i be able to reuse the tie rod ends? i know i will need to make a new drag link and tie rod for the knuckle setup.
Re: WJ Knuckle Swap... The CORRECT way!
You would think that, but they were all CV axles after 99, you have to remember at the same time they were downgrading to low pinon d30s in the xj. Honestly, for a street driven, pavement bound WJ, if I had to pick between them as a manufacturer, a CV shaft would probably offer a longer maintenance interval (like to the end of a 60k warranty perhaps) and quieter smoother street operation, and they hold up fine on street use with stock tires. I thought it was more surprising that U joint axle shafts ever even made it into production on the WJ.
You would think that, but they were all CV axles after 99, you have to remember at the same time they were downgrading to low pinon d30s in the xj. Honestly, for a street driven, pavement bound WJ, if I had to pick between them as a manufacturer, a CV shaft would probably offer a longer maintenance interval (like to the end of a 60k warranty perhaps) and quieter smoother street operation, and they hold up fine on street use with stock tires. I thought it was more surprising that U joint axle shafts ever even made it into production on the WJ.
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