Wiring house for a Hobart 180?

[RCP Phx]

Code is here to protect you from yourself(under any and every possible "what if")!
Lets try this scenario,please pretend you are John/Jane Doe and you know nothing about electricity but that you plug stuff in and it turns on/off!

Im a slum lord that renovates 4-plexes.The power panel is in the managers unit.Each unit's kitchen was wired with a 30A oven receptacle(for a 25A stove) with 30Amps worth of "Aluminum" wire(lets have some fun with this) and a 30A breaker.It was all inspected and approved.

Now I decide to sell them as apt condos.You buy in and remodel the kitchen.You get home from Sears and find out your new stove has a 50A cord on it.No problem you just change out the receptacle to a 50A(your stove only draws 32Amps).You live there for years with no problem.Now you sell!

The next guy comes in and wants a new stove.He goes to Sears,they ask about the power outlet available,you say theres a 50A outlet on the wall.They say "great no problems "this thing only draws 37Amps".He goes home and "it plugs right in",great tomorrows Christmas.After 6 hours of cooking the turkey the house catches on fire!!!

You thinking, WHAT???

Circuit breakers provide 3 types of protection(Ground fault,Short circuit,and Over-load).Its Over-load that causes the problem.
Heres you reason.Circuit breakers are what they call "inverse/time"(that is time vs. current).A 30A breaker might put out 32amps forever with no issues.It might also deliver 37amps for hours(or long enough to start a fire)!

 

[LynchMob]

Got the welder on the weekend...last one in the store

Manual states (as mentioned already):
Imput amps at rated output = 20
Max recommended breaker size = 30 (normal operating) or 25 (time delay / circuit breaker)...not sure what this means ???
Min Conductor / wire = 14


The wire I'm clear on...running anything larger than the min 14 awg is non issue.

But, by running a larger breaker, as some have suggested, am I not running risk of overloading the welder? I ask because I currently have a two pole 40amp breaker free (saves me paying $80 for a new 30amp at Home Despot); could I maybe use a 30 gfi receptical (since it's outdoors anyway) to protect it? Do they even make these...is the difference more than what I'm going to save on teh breaker?

Thanks for all the help so far. I can't wait to get at it.

 

[RedHeep]

Code is here to protect you from yourself(under any and every possible "what if")!
Lets try this scenario,please pretend you are John/Jane Doe and you know nothing about electricity but that you plug stuff in and it turns on/off!

Im a slum lord that renovates 4-plexes.The power panel is in the managers unit.Each unit's kitchen was wired with a 30A oven receptacle(for a 25A stove) with 30Amps worth of "Aluminum" wire(lets have some fun with this) and a 30A breaker.It was all inspected and approved.

Now I decide to sell them as apt condos.You buy in and remodel the kitchen.You get home from Sears and find out your new stove has a 50A cord on it.No problem you just change out the receptacle to a 50A(your stove only draws 32Amps).You live there for years with no problem.Now you sell!

The next guy comes in and wants a new stove.He goes to Sears,they ask about the power outlet available,you say theres a 50A outlet on the wall.They say "great no problems "this thing only draws 37Amps".He goes home and "it plugs right in",great tomorrows Christmas.After 6 hours of cooking the turkey the house catches on fire!!!

You thinking, WHAT???

Circuit breakers provide 3 types of protection(Ground fault,Short circuit,and Over-load).Its Over-load that causes the problem.
Heres you reason.Circuit breakers are what they call "inverse/time"(that is time vs. current).A 30A breaker might put out 32amps forever with no issues.It might also deliver 37amps for hours(or long enough to start a fire)!

Didn't see the part about lecturing us on the results of a bad installation, did you?

All of us "non-electricians" must be morons and don't know not to put a 50 amp appliance on a 30 amp circuit. I'm done, have a nice day.

 

[Quacked]

If you are going through the time and expense of running 220 to your garage, spend the few extra dollars and make sure it is heavy enough to run the big vertical 3 stage compressor you always look at everytime you go to Northern Hydraulics.

 

[Bloose]

I don't understand where you're coming from.

Why would it be ok to use 10 ga wire on a 30 amp circuit, because the 10 ga is rated for a higher load than 30 amps, but it's not ok to use a 50 amp receptacle on a 30 amp circuit?

I don't need a lecture on the results of a bad electrical installation, just explain what you mean. Why is it wrong to use a receptacle rated at a maximum of 50 amps on a circuit rated at a maximum of 30 amps? The receptacle is not the limiter in the circuit, the breaker is.

The easy answer is nuisance tripping.

Problem is, if you have a 50A recepticle some one down the line (not you) may plug in a 50A load and then keep tripping the breaker. They then may "upgrade" the breaker to match the recepticle and then have undersized wiring. The best thing to do is match everything correctly. It is very true you can up size the wiring, i.e. run#8 on a 20A breaker but other than that I would run the correct breaker and outlet for the application.

Another thing to think about is that the National Electric Code has a specific section for welders. This is I think why they are recommending a minimum wire size of #14 on a 30A max breaker, it has to do with the duty cycle of the welder. But if you run a 30A breaker #10 or #8 wire and a 30A recepticle (I'd do a twist lock) you'll be all set.

BTW, #14 is normally only good for 15A, #12 for 20A and #10 for 30A.

Sorry I don't have my code book handy to quote the sections of the code.

B-loose

 

[Bloose]

Single phase what?As long as youve got 208/220/230/240 and 2 adjacent slots your good to go.Just pick up a 50A 2pole breaker and some wire.

Single phase what? 208 is 3phase only. 220, 230, and 240 are all really the same thing.

B-loose