turbos

[imma honky]

I know it can work, but i'm wondering how much work would it involve to put a 2.1TD turbo (from a cherokee) into a stroked 4.6/7 (I am just learning about turbos....) Would this be too small of a turbo? I can get one pretty cheap, but want to know if I should hold off.

 

[Citat3962]

Yeah the BIGGEST clue that it's going to be too small is the fact that it feeds a 2.1L Diesel and you want to use it on a gas motor that is a little less than twice the size..

Plus a deisel makes it's power down low so the turbo would be sized small to make power down low.. That means it's small even for a 2.1L!

PLUS your gas motor Revs higher and runs at higher RPMS than the deisel..

I would look at turbonetics T3's and T4's..... The 3 would be good to make down low wheelin power the 4 would be more for top end..

and those might even be a bit small..

I know the VW VR6 guys use T4 and bigger turbos... The draggers use GT350 turbos if they have the coin... and that's a 2.8L 6Cyl..

So I'd say you'd be best off with a T4 or a T3 and a custom manifold of sorts..

 

[ErikL]

no, the smaller turbo might be better, that way you dont run into lag issues. it would be bad days trying to climb a rock or steep hill and out of nowhere you blow the tires off...... its a bit of an exageration, but same idea...... do you have any idea on the exact turbo size?

 

[GasAlley]

you will always fight a degree of lag on these, on a typical day of you are wheeling you may never get out of vacuum regardless of size. However you will notice that your day to day driving may be more fun.

Now if you really feel the need to turbo charge your stroker my suggest would be a saab KKK or even a small garret t3/4. Again I doubt you will gain any boost while on the trail.

 

[Storydude]

CT26. Usually found in supras. The MK3 supra has a 3L engine, and the CT26 is good for 12-15PSI. They can run over 15PSI, but they like to eat themselves at that power level.

some of the t4 based combo units can work well too.

BE PREPARED for some hard times, and HEAVY DUTY tuning. NOTHING will be stock.

 

[GasAlley]

CT26. Usually found in supras. The MK3 supra has a 3L engine, and the CT26 is good for 12-15PSI. They can run over 15PSI, but they like to eat themselves at that power level.

some of the t4 based combo units can work well too.

BE PREPARED for some hard times, and HEAVY DUTY tuning. NOTHING will be stock.

Yeah what he said too

 

[Citat3962]

no, the smaller turbo might be better, that way you dont run into lag issues. it would be bad days trying to climb a rock or steep hill and out of nowhere you blow the tires off...... its a bit of an exageration, but same idea...... do you have any idea on the exact turbo size?

ooooook.... I love it when people reply to a thought out answer with a....no. and no evidence except some stereotypical old guy opinions on turbo setups.. a Tiny turbo could just as liekly make 300HP and 300 Lbft but only make it for 100 RPM right off idle.. basicly a recipie for burnouts even with light pedal application... this would lead to broken axles, shredded tires, blown transmissions... etc.. use your imagination.. I'd rather a gradual power buildup to redline than all the power at the bottom 2K RPMs and a wheezing cougher above 4500..

Most of the old stuff doesn't apply.. if you're using modern EFI and adjustable ignition you can make a T04 Feel like a K04 off the line (Huge Turbonetics turbo vs. Tiny stock VW turbo) crank the boost, up the fuel (standalone injection or a piggyback device), and advance your timing until it pings lightly under load and retard it 1-2 deg.

"woah it's a HUGE T04 with nearly NO lag!!!" amazing what a cool high pressure boost charge will do for eliminating lag. this can only be done with a properly sized (read Oversized) turbo and some form of intercooling.

Seriously... this turbo would likely REDUCE horsepower and Torque by being such an extreme backpressure bottle neck... It could even prevent the motor from running!

Corky Bell Said it best...

"If you have no lag, You have no power"

OEM turbos tend to always be on the small side for the displacement they feed.. Especially in deisels

Don't compensate for a lag issue by using an undersized turbo.. it overheats the intake charge, It increases back pressure putting the Wastegate under unnessisary stress... It's a losing battle... you don't have trouble with lag but you lose most of the horsepower you would have gotten at the same boost pressure by using a properly sized turbo..

Alot of the Lag fabel's are related to people dealing with boost the old way..

ex:
Throw some Huge injectors at it.... no chip... retard the timing to the point it's barely running at idle... or worse yet set a vac advance distributor to retard on accel to cut back on the preignition... Ever driven a car with too much timing retard?? feels alot like turbo lag even on a N/A motor.... all of these old knock protection techniques just increase turbo lag... and were basicly bandaids for not having proper ignition timing and fuel (either too much or too little)

I'm all for saving money where it's proper and safe to do so....... Junkyard turbo setups using whatever is cheap without doing the math is going to get you a blown motor... or at least one that runs like shit...

so if you just want to mess around with some cheap parts and don't mind if you get less than satisfactory results feel free to cut every corner on your way to the goal... don't say I didn't warn you...

If you want it to run right...

pick up Corky Bell's Maximum boost.. get a calculator and start doing the math..

That book can help you plan the best possible home brew turbo setup and then you can spend according to your budget..

 

[ErikL]

settle down there captian answer.... .i was not responding to you with a no, hell i wasnt even responding to you. my reply was to the original post. so your well thought out reply doesnt mean a damn thing to me.

im not going to get into this discusion with you, you have your opinions about how to deal with this kind of issue, i have mine. we could both argue with each other until everyone is blue in the face but i would rather not.

so settle down alittle, nobody is attacking you, or saying you dont know what youre talking about.

 

[GasAlley]

well one thing I can promise you will gain out of the turbo deal is the really cool whooooooosh sound

 

[Citat3962]

Oh ok.. my mistake..

Wasn't really treating it as an attack..

I just hate it when people take the ancient knuckle dragger approch to a turbo system when it's those setups that gave turbo motors a bad rap as poor performers down low lot's of lag.. unreliable, Blow motors like crazy.

The old ways of dealing with the increased fuel needs and the different ignition map and reducing turbo lag are the real culprits that gave the turbocharged motor a bad rap.

once again... my bad..

I just love anything with a hairdryer hooked to it and it makes me cringe every time I see an undersized turbo or a non intercooled setup on someones custom project.... it just screams poorly thought out corners cut.. this might hold together for a bit longer...... might..

again.. I appologise for getting all huffy about my turbos.... touchy subject..

 

[Storydude]

X2. The only bad thing is all that pretty computer control costs large$$$$$$$$

I've seen 600RWHP supras that look, and drive stock.....untill you mash the gas, and build some boost. when that gauge hits about 15 PSI, you feel invincible.....Too bad it's cubic Dollars that get you there.

 

[MudDawg]

Stereotypical old guy.....I resemble that remark.. :laugh3: I have a sticker on the back of my Top Gas bike that says: Old age and deception beats youth and enthusiasm. I wanna turbo for the mighty 2.5. The nitrous is a bit harsh.

 

[imma honky]

So that's a "pass it up" I guess? since it might be too small? I was mainly curious just b/c it's from a diesel XJ.... I know other turbos work, but I saw it and it made me think, that's all.

 

[Citat3962]

There's alot to be said for old guy experience..

especially when that experience kept evolving as the technology did.. The only guy out there that can tell you why the Old way didn't work is one who dumped alot of coin into a flawed setup and payed for it either in $$$ or time or both!

On turbo setups I'd talk to the REAL import tuners and the Top Fuel Drag racers with turbocharged and supercharged cars.. they know how to overbuild to prevent damage and increase reliability... be it at 40 PSI or 10PSI the same rules apply... correct fueling.. proper ignition maps and a properly sized turbo = long life and maximum HP output for the boost pressure..

If I was building an SBC or a 454 I'd look for the oldest guy around and start there.

If I was building a Turbo charged XJ I'd visit my nearest Import shop that does installs for the local ricers... Find out if they do custom setups or just install kits..

If they do custom work they likely will be your best ally in making this work..

You will need a custom exhaust manifold with the correct bolt pattern on the flange... this will be the limiting factor preventing you from swapping from turbo to turbo in search of the right one.. they ALL have different flanges and the manifold will have to be cut and welded to change to a different one.. Pick right the first time... whatever you decide that is..

Then you'll need a custom downpipe with another one off flange turbo specific..

wastegate mounting? internal external? Water and oil line routing? it's all going to be turbo specific so either get good with the welder and exhausts or make really good friends with your local exhaust shop..

We have a local guy who's been doing one off Headers for muscle cars since the 60's between him and his son I think they could build just about any exhaust parts I need, mandrel bent, made with a smile.

A big issue with the XJ is that driver side motor mount.. it's right under the exhaust manifold where you would want to put the turbo..

you'd need to get around that as well..

what I plan to do in the install for my dads cabriolet turbo setup is have it sitting there with the motor out and mock it up on the stand... then drop it in and see what doesn't fit... modify accordingly... I'll probably drop the motor in and take it out 4 -5 times or more before we're ready for final assembly... it's a big undertaking.. be over prepared..

 

[Citat3962]

I'd wait and save some $$$ for the RE4.5 of the turbo world...

your milage may vary with that rustys BB with AAL....

(lol)

 

[ErikL]

its funny, im not an old guy....and i have a good amount of knowledge and experience with turbo systems. any turbo is better then nothing at all, for a daily driven, and off road used jeep i wouldnt go much boost or a very big turbo, but thats just my opinion.... run with it if youd like

 

[Dingo509]

its funny, im not an old guy....and i have a good amount of knowledge and experience with turbo systems. any turbo is better then nothing at all, for a daily driven, and off road used jeep i wouldnt go much boost or a very big turbo, but thats just my opinion.... run with it if youd like

I agree, while talking to import drivers about turbo's is a great idea, The cars that have these turbo's make 600hp and not quite 100 lbs/ft of torque (exaggeration, yes but you get my point) Most Tuner guys bolt on the biggest turbo possible to generate more boost. The Engine these guys run make most of ther power at extremely high RPM's not exactly the best recipe for us to follow. I've asked about lag, their answer "lag can be handled while the light's still red" great response, but i like driving for longer than a 1/4 mile at a time and the Trail is never straight and flat, at least where I wheel.

Diesel guys are a little better but they don't really have to worry about getting the mix as accurate as us. there response when asked about what turbo "get more air and oil in, and it'll go faster". Again great response, but i Turn my 4.0 a little higher than 2500 RPM and usually don't haul a house behind me. (yes another exaggeration). and again where at that straight and flat thing, albeit a little longer than 1/4 mile this time.

Which brings us to offroad rally drivers, let's see rough roads, on and off the throttle, not interested in aboslute horsepower at the sacrifice of everything else. sound kinda like us! they do not run the biggest turbo available but one with high boost at all rpm's and very little turbo lag. Most rally cars (WRC) are tuned for around 250-325 HP, not 500HP which would be easily obtainable with the engines they run. they do this so as not to have boost kick in the middle of a corner and send the car flying of the track into god knows what, but to have a very powerful, PREDICTABLE power curve. Exactly what we XJer's want.

This is my opinion from the info I have gathered at this point in doing research for my own turbo stroker. you do not have to agree or argue with it.

Dingo

 

[ErikL]

I agree, while talking to import drivers about turbo's is a great idea, The cars that have these turbo's make 600hp and not quite 100 lbs/ft of torque (exaggeration, yes but you get my point) Most Tuner guys bolt on the biggest turbo possible to generate more boost. The Engine these guys run make most of ther power at extremely high RPM's not exactly the best recipe for us to follow. I've asked about lag, their answer "lag can be handled while the light's still red" great response, but i like driving for longer than a 1/4 mile at a time and the Trail is never straight and flat, at least where I wheel.

Diesel guys are a little better but they don't really have to worry about getting the mix as accurate as us. there response when asked about what turbo "get more air and oil in, and it'll go faster". Again great response, but i Turn my 4.0 a little higher than 2500 RPM and usually don't haul a house behind me. (yes another exaggeration). and again where at that straight and flat thing, albeit a little longer than 1/4 mile this time.

Which brings us to offroad rally drivers, let's see rough roads, on and off the throttle, not interested in aboslute horsepower at the sacrifice of everything else. sound kinda like us! they do not run the biggest turbo available but one with high boost at all rpm's and very little turbo lag. Most rally cars (WRC) are tuned for around 250-325 HP, not 500HP which would be easily obtainable with the engines they run. they do this so as not to have boost kick in the middle of a corner and send the car flying of the track into god knows what, but to have a very powerful, PREDICTABLE power curve. Exactly what we XJer's want.

This is my opinion from the info I have gathered at this point in doing research for my own turbo stroker. you do not have to agree or argue with it.

Dingo

i agree, thats basicly what im saying, for something that would be good for what most of us do, a small turbo works..... i deal with and work on a few different pro street outlaw mustang guys (dwyane james, john urist, mike sherbring, anthony dickson....to name drop a few) but these guys are all making 1000+ hp and 1000+ tq with 100mm and bigger turbos...... not quite the results we are all looking for (unless someone has a project going the rest dont know about) even though a smaller turbo would restrict the amount of boost that could be made, it will be better suited for off road, and on road use. again, just my opinion, i know i would hate to hit boost while trying to gas up a rock.....then just dig myself in deeper when the tires break loose.

 

[cjwalkeriii]

First of all I will be honest, I did not read each and everyone of the posts... To soap opera for me. Anyhow, in response to the first reply, it's of a 2.1l dieseal. WEll in my run ins with dieseal engines, there running a hell of lot more compression. I could be wrong, but if it's cheap, and you have to money for the bov and wastegate, give it a shot. It could work out really well.

 

[Dingo509]

I could be wrong, but if it's cheap, and you have to money for the bov and wastegate, give it a shot. It could work out really well.

I agree many a great things have been discovered only by trial and error, unfornately someone has to be the guniea pig. I say go for it! and give us all the best info you can on everything you did and your results.

Dingo