Significant power upgrades: CA Edition

[cal]

wouldn't be CA legal.

 

[SDMike]

wouldn't be CA legal.

Gas to Diesel swaps are allowed. You must retain all the original engine's smog devices.

You would then take it to the Smog Referee, and they would validate it.

California does not smog Diesel engines, so once the Referee has checked off on it, you are done with smog.

 

[cal]

Gas to Diesel swaps are allowed. You must retain all the original engine's smog devices.

You would then take it to the Smog Referee, and they would validate it.

California does not smog Diesel engines, so once the Referee has checked off on it, you are done with smog.

California smogs any diesel made after 1997.

California does not allow gas to diesel conversions.

I've been through this at great length and detail.

 

[SDMike]

Correct, He would need to use a 1997 or older engine. to avoid any further smog checks.

According to the BAR website, All you have to do is retain the donor Engine's emissions equipment.

Here is a thread documenting it in the last year (go to the last page).
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=485875&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

 

[cheapcherokee93]

I'm seeing a lot of different info out there.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/chevy/1112684-california-gas-diesel-swap-smog-requirements.html

goes back and forth there, people claiming they did it, etc

http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResources/ftp/pdfdocs/Smog Check Reference Guide.pdf

but then read the actual guide and nothing is mentioned about specifically going from gas to diesel. only thing that i see that would hinder the proposed 1.9l TDI is that they come from Jettas, which are classified under "passenger car", and my MJ is considered a "light duty truck". The guide says the donor must come from the same class of vehicle....

 

[SDMike]

They put them into VW busses (1 ton vehicle). Referee's pass them.

 

[cheapcherokee93]

They put them into VW busses (1 ton vehicle). Referee's pass them.

i'd probably personally talk to a referee before i dropped the cash and spent the time doing the swap. i would really hate to get it working perfectly and then find out i wasted my time.


i really know absolutely nothing about this swap. has it been done? what transmission/t case can go behind this engine?

 

[cal]

I thought you were looking for a power ugprade?

isn't the vw 1.9 like.. 150 horses?

 

[cheapcherokee93]

I thought you were looking for a power ugprade?

isn't the vw 1.9 like.. 150 horses?

i have no idea.


honestly the stroker sounds like the best option right now. expensive, but bolt in power with no question of passing smog

 

[SDMike]

Just because I don't want to put false info out there, And CAL seems like had some recent experience I thought I'd do some checking.

I called the BAR Dept. and was told: "CAL is right"

You can put a gasoline engine into a diesel vehicle, but not the other way around.

The laws have not changed, They are aware they have allowed it in the past. Just that the interpretation of the law has been getting more scrutiny lately and referee's should no longer be allowing it. (yes, they are aware that people are still getting through).

I then called the local referee station to make an appointment to approve the conversion and they were willing to make an appointment for me to bring them the vehicle for inspection. (I expected them to tell me it's not allowed, and who knows maybe they would at the inspection).

Lastly, I know of people who have put diesels into VW Busses and gotten it thru the ref's no problem. But then again, an open oil derrick is less smog than a air-cooled engine, so a Diesel is a marked improvement.

Given the evidence, I'm presuming that the official stance is "it's not allowed because a diesel puts out more smog than a gas engine (unless you are air-cooled)", regardless, the final call is made at the referee station, and it seems luck of the draw at best.

It then would seem a significant risk to expend all the labor and cash involved into putting a diesel into and XJ, with only luck of the referee draw to decide wether it would be approved or not.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[cheapcherokee93]

Just because I don't want to put false info out there, And CAL seems like had some recent experience I thought I'd do some checking.

I called the BAR Dept. and was told: "CAL is right"

You can put a gasoline engine into a diesel vehicle, but not the other way around.

The laws have not changed, They are aware they have allowed it in the past. Just that the interpretation of the law has been getting more scrutiny lately and referee's should no longer be allowing it. (yes, they are aware that people are still getting through).

I then called the local referee station to make an appointment to approve the conversion and they were willing to make an appointment for me to bring them the vehicle for inspection. (I expected them to tell me it's not allowed, and who knows maybe they would at the inspection).

Lastly, I know of people who have put diesels into VW Busses and gotten it thru the ref's no problem. But then again, an open oil derrick is less smog than a air-cooled engine, so a Diesel is a marked improvement.

Given the evidence, I'm presuming that the official stance is "it's not allowed because a diesel puts out more smog than a gas engine (unless you are air-cooled)", regardless, the final call is made at the referee station, and it seems luck of the draw at best.

It then would seem a significant risk to expend all the labor and cash involved into putting a diesel into and XJ, with only luck of the referee draw to decide wether it would be approved or not.

Cheers,
Mike

I figured this was probably the case. CA hating on diesel engines lol.

 

[Root Moose]

Tangent: I've often wondered if swapping in a 5/6 speed would help these trucks when overloaded.

Less power lost in the drivetrain; always in the gear you want it in with the potential of extra gears splitting the difference when you aren't in the right gear with the AW4.

It's an efficiency thing, not a power increase obviously. It might make the vehicle feel more responsive?

Maybe do that as something you could do in a weekend for a couple hundred bucks to see if it avoids the big job of an engine change?

I don't know what the torque rating on the AX15, NV3500 or NSG370 is though. That would need to be researched. IIRC the AW4 Jeeps always had a higher tow rating than manuals and maybe that is due to the internal strength of the AW4 transmission?

JAT

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

NSG370 Specs at a Glance

Make: Daimler
Length: 23.5" (I6), 24.8" (V6)
Height: 18"
Weight: 89 lbs.
Case: Cast aluminum
PTO Port: None
Mfg. Input Torque Rating: 272 ft. lbs.
Fluid Capacity: 3.75 pints / 1.9 quarts
Fill / Drain Plug: 14mm Allen / 17mm Allen

Gear Ratios (Jeep): (x-to-1):
4.46 2.61 1.72 1.25 1.00 0.84 R4.06

This transmission is a Mercedes design and, as such, I would expect it to live a very long time as that is the Mercedes reputation. Only "strangeness" is the fluid requirement. It must be the specified fluid or else.

But then, that is a Mercedes reputation thing as well...

In general, the more gears one has before the 1:1 gear the better it is for efficiently transmitting the torque to the ground. Notice that the new Cherokee comes with a 9 speed automatic in it. America has finally discovered what the Europeans have known for decades...

When the "three on the tree" was the norm here, 4 and 5 speed manuals were the norm in Europe with the occasional 6 speed on the exotic cars. They did it due to the Government mandated small engines (sound familiar?) and the need to maximize fuel economy due to the cost of fuel also caused by Government via the tax structure.

 

[Root Moose]

I took a look at the web pages at novak-adapt for the various transmissions. It appears the are all in the same ball park for input torque rating - where numbers were available.

Numerically the NSG is ~30 lb-ft off the NV3550 but that could just be down to measuring methods or how conservative MB is with their design factors. I'd go with either. All seem to live fine behind V8s.

AX15 and NV3550 may be cheaper. Like stated above you'd need to compare gear splits and in which gear direct drive occurs. I'm on a tablet at the moment so can't be bothered.

 

[cheapcherokee93]

Interesting about the 6 speed trans. i've never wheeled with a stick before, but i enjoy wheeling an automatic. I think the 6 speed would help but its not the answer to more hp. most of my gripes with my lack of power is cruising on the freeway, with the torque converter locked where not as much power is being lost through the trans. it would be pretty cool though to have a 6 speed in an MJ, even cooler behind a stroker

 

[Root Moose]

In general, the more gears one has before the 1:1 gear the better it is for efficiently transmitting the torque to the ground. Notice that the new Cherokee comes with a 9 speed automatic in it. America has finally discovered what the Europeans have known for decades...

The only caveat to this would be whether top gear in the manual transmission can deal with full engine torque, full load and hauling a trailer. I suspect this is why the AW4 has a higher tow rating and the owners manual says to tow in third (1:1). I wonder if the manual says anything about which gear to use for towing with the manual transmission.

Have we beat this tangent to death yet?

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

IMO, attempting to tow in OD whether on a manual or an automatic, is asking for trouble. And, no, a 6 speed transmission does not create more power, it does deliver what is available in a more efficient manner that comes out to roughly the same thing.

 

[yossarian19]

In other words, a manual won't increase crank horsepower but it will get you more HP at the wheels (where it matters)

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Correct. And, after all, what are we attempting to do? Power to the ground.

 

[cal]

Just because I don't want to put false info out there, And CAL seems like had some recent experience I thought I'd do some checking.

I called the BAR Dept. and was told: "CAL is right"

You can put a gasoline engine into a diesel vehicle, but not the other way around.

The laws have not changed, They are aware they have allowed it in the past. Just that the interpretation of the law has been getting more scrutiny lately and referee's should no longer be allowing it. (yes, they are aware that people are still getting through).

I then called the local referee station to make an appointment to approve the conversion and they were willing to make an appointment for me to bring them the vehicle for inspection. (I expected them to tell me it's not allowed, and who knows maybe they would at the inspection).

Lastly, I know of people who have put diesels into VW Busses and gotten it thru the ref's no problem. But then again, an open oil derrick is less smog than a air-cooled engine, so a Diesel is a marked improvement.

Given the evidence, I'm presuming that the official stance is "it's not allowed because a diesel puts out more smog than a gas engine (unless you are air-cooled)", regardless, the final call is made at the referee station, and it seems luck of the draw at best.

It then would seem a significant risk to expend all the labor and cash involved into putting a diesel into and XJ, with only luck of the referee draw to decide wether it would be approved or not.

Cheers,
Mike

The biggest difference now is you don't just have to go to the ref, but the ref has to submit things back to BAR, who approves it and directly mails you a barcoded sticker to go under your hood. If you don't have that barcoded sticker, you can't pass (or be exempted from) your emissions test.

It used to be a process that started and finished with the ref, and BAR caught the paperwork on the back end.

Rigs that have been passing smog for 15 years are now failing and having to go back to BAR to get their sticker, on previously approved mods (like EFI conversions, etc).