Shooting in the NFs

[WB9YZU]

I was at Carnage Boulder Saturday. Big sign that says "Shooting ban in effect", full of holes and not one, but two places near the entrance they are piles of fresh shell casings.

Spring Creek Sunday, two guys in a white pickup are all setup on the second switchback firing up the trail at aerosol cans. Yah, there's ATVs and Jeeps on the trail.

I know we have some "Gun Enthusiasts" here. AS gun owners and target shooters, what's your take on this?

 

[Skullver]

I am not familiar with the area but I am familiar with the scenario. I am a gun owner/avid shooter and I don't approve of that. It makes us responsible gun owners look bad, which is the last thing we need! There should be plenty of "legal" areas to shoot. I have to drive like 45 minutes to go shooting and have no problem doing this. I carry my pistol everywhere when I am camping or wheeling but never in an illegal fashion(ammo separated/locked etc.) and never am tempted to cook off some rounds in a populated or illegal area, the consequences just aren't worth it. just my .02$.

 

[WB9YZU]

The two areas are in Colorado. The first is in the Roosevelt NF, and I believe Spring Creek is in the Arapaho NF. It is legal to shoot in NFs, and as someone who believes that NFs are places we should all enjoy, perhaps there should be designated shooting areas for the purpose? Heck, there's enough tailings piles to use as backdrops!

Around WI, there are shooting ranges built for that specific purpose, mainly because of the population density. Many are low cost (read "Free") because the Fuzz needs to keep in practice too That does not prevent Joe Smith from going out to the back 40 and poping off a few, but perhaps because it's his property, and his neighbors, there doesn't seem to be the piles of casings or safety issues. Many actually use targets instead of (put name of old junk here).

So, folks know where this is leading...
I grew up with guns. In my mind, they are for exactly one thing...Killing things.
They are not a recreation, though I have many friends who use them for just that, and they belong to shooting clubs. Yes, they go to a range every Wednesday...just like bowling
Just like Jeepers who get off the trail, and we kindly ask them to return to the trail. How comfortable are most Gun Enthusiasts with walking up to an armed idiot and educating them about gun safety or cleaning up their mess when they're done?

 

[Rev Den]

No different then illegal wheeling, street racing, removing cats, or getting exhibition insurance to loophole emission testing.

People who do this are lowlife dirt balls.

Rev

 

[karstic]

Where ever I shoot, NF, BLM, private range I police as much of my brass and shotgun shells as possible, even when hunting. I don't shoot at glass bottles, TVs, computers or anything else difficult to clean up. I've hauled out enough of other peoples crap to fill a dumpster.

 

[IXNAYXJ]

No different then illegal wheeling

Agreed. I saw a bunch of guys last weekend with full-size rigs and 44" boggers tearing up a "sensative" off-trail NF area. Makes us all look like ass-hats.

Same thing with the shooters you describe. People I shoot with don't do that.

-----Matt-----

 

[ECKSJAY]

People I shoot with don't do that.

-----Matt-----

xEleventy brazillion

 

[XJ Dreamin']

You have to check with each NF for rules specific to that forest. However, shooting down a trail or road is generally frowned upon. Our NF (Sam Houston) is also a state Wildlife Management Area. That means that weapons are unloaded except when actually legally hunting. If you are not stalking or sitting a blind you can be fined for a loaded weapon. Just a example to make the point: Check with each NF for local rules.

We used to have designated shooting areas but the lead content of the run-off shut them down, so sight-in before you come out. No shooting at all except at game, in season.

Report all ashats to the NF LEOs. They live to give people $hit. Describe the vehicle to them. I betcha they know who you're talking about.

 

[ECKSJAY]

You have to check with each NF for rules specific to that forest. However, shooting down a trail or road is generally frowned upon. Our NF (Sam Houston) is also a state Wildlife Management Area. That means that weapons are unloaded except when actually legally hunting. If you are not stalking or sitting a blind you can be fined for a loaded weapon. Just a example to make the point: Check with each NF for local rules.

We used to have designated shooting areas but the lead content of the run-off shut them down, so sight-in before you come out. No shooting at all except at game, in season.

Report all ashats to the NF LEOs. They live to give people $hit. Describe the vehicle to them. I betcha they know who you're talking about.

In addition, more often than not if you are licensed to carry a concealed firearm in the state boundaries of said park/forest, you're allowed 'passage' through. One could argue that the marked trails are 'roads', therefore one could be legally 'passing' through them. Devil's advocate here.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

In addition, more often than not if you are licensed to carry a concealed firearm in the state boundaries of said park/forest, you're allowed 'passage' through. One could argue that the marked trails are 'roads', therefore one could be legally 'passing' through them. Devil's advocate here.

Nice try. I'm not the LEO, so I couldn't say for sure. It's actually enforcement of a state law, because it is a state WMA. Of course, just 'cause you got a concealed weapon don't mean it's gotta be loaded. Just playing advocate back at ya'. I don't know on that one.

I do know a state CCW license don't mean squat inside the Rangers Office. Don't carry that thing into the office. That's a federal building. A state license won't save you there.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Nice try. I'm not the LEO, so I couldn't say for sure. It's actually enforcement of a state law, because it is a state WMA. Of course, just 'cause you got a concealed weapon don't mean it's gotta be loaded. Just playing advocate back at ya'. I don't know on that one.

I do know a state CCW license don't mean squat inside the Rangers Office. Don't carry that thing into the office. That's a federal building. A state license won't save you there.

To clarify, from Packing.org:

Q: Carry in National Parks.
A: Carry in National Parks is not legal even with a permit. Gun must be unloaded and stored while in a National Park.

Q: Carry In National Forest
A: If you can legally carry in the state the National Forest is in you can carry in the National Forest. You can not carry into any buildings on the National Forest as they are owned by the Federal Government.

I also don't know of a jurisdiction that doesn't consider an unloaded, concealed firearm as a 'concealed' firearm. Firearm is a firearm, loaded or not. Think about it, if I pulled out my Glock and threatened people with it...nobody cares whether it was actually loaded. If I pointed it at a cop or another armed citizen they would be well within their rights to shoot and incapacitate me. Like I said, I don't know where an unloaded, concealed firearm makes a difference. This is cool, we're all learning something here.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Nice try. I'm not the LEO, so I couldn't say for sure. It's actually enforcement of a state law, because it is a state WMA. Of course, just 'cause you got a concealed weapon don't mean it's gotta be loaded. Just playing advocate back at ya'. I don't know on that one. I do know a state CCW license don't mean squat inside the Rangers Office. Don't carry that thing into the office. That's a federal building. A state license won't save you there.

To clarify, from Packing.org:

Q: Carry in National Parks.
A: Carry in National Parks is not legal even with a permit. Gun must be unloaded and stored while in a National Park.

Q: Carry In National Forest
A: If you can legally carry in the state the National Forest is in you can carry in the National Forest. You can not carry into any buildings on the National Forest as they are owned by the Federal Government.

I also don't know of a jurisdiction that doesn't consider an unloaded, concealed firearm as a 'concealed' firearm. Firearm is a firearm, loaded or not. Think about it, if I pulled out my Glock and threatened people with it...nobody cares whether it was actually loaded. If I pointed it at a cop or another armed citizen they would be well within their rights to shoot and incapacitate me. Like I said, I don't know where an unloaded, concealed firearm makes a difference. This is cool, we're all learning something here.

The Players present episode VII of their long running, widely aclaimed series:

"But Your Honor..."

In this weeks episode member ECKSJAY stands before the judge.

Scene: Federal Court
Act I: Scene 1:
Defendent: "But, your Honor! Packing.org said I could."
Judge: {bangs gavel on bench} "Twenty years in Levenworth. Have a nice day."
fini

Join us next week when ECKSJAY hears that hauntingly familiar jailhouse phrase, "You got a nice purdy little butt there, boy."

OK. Just messing with you. Good info. Thanks. Still, call the forest and talk to the LEO. They can be hard to get hold of, but they are the only ones who know.

Unloaded and stowed is generally safe most anywhere, except in a federal building. On the rack or otherwise not concealed should be unloaded unless actively hunting. The property status of through roads can affect this. The state road through the Sam Houston is by permit. It is technically federal property and our LEO could stop you and check your weapons, if he gave a rats a$$ which depends on his mood of the day. Concealed with a license, I expect that Packing.org is probably right. And you are right, of course. Draw a weapon, even unloaded, and you can expect pre-emptive fire. Nobody here I know is going to wait to find out if it's loaded or not.

Remember, though. I'm talking about a state law that affects the Sam Houston because it is a state WMA as well as a National Forest. I don't know how the state WMA regs affect the state CCW license. It's an interesting point though. I'll have to ask our LEO. I'm not saying you'd get a ticket for carrying, but you might get a ticket for it being loaded. Remember that when state and federal laws clash there is no logic.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Good info. Thanks. Still, call the forest and talk to the LEO. They can be hard to get hold of, but they are the only ones who know.

Unloaded and stowed is generally safe most anywhere, except in a federal building. On the rack or otherwise not concealed should be unloaded unless actively hunting. The property status of through roads can affect this. The state road through the Sam Houston is by permit. It is technically federal property and our LEO could stop you and check your weapons, if he gave a rats a$$ which depends on his mood of the day. Concealed with a license, I expect that Packing.org is probably right. And you are right, of course. Draw a weapon, even unloaded, and you can expect pre-emptive fire. Nobody here I know is going to wait to find out if it's loaded or not.

Remember, though. I'm talking about a state law that affects the Sam Houston because it is a state WMA as well as a National Forest. I don't know how the state WMA regs affect the state CCW license. It's an interesting point though. I'll have to ask our LEO. I'm not saying you'd get a ticket for carrying, but you might get a ticket for it being loaded. Remember that when state and federal laws clash there is no logic.

Ok so that first part was just plain dumb. I know I'm covered where I'm at. Best advice though is to call like you said.

Quick Google of this issue brought this up (re: Gifford Pinchot National Forest, which happens to be where I am), but it works great as a guide. Interesting points in it:

It is legal to openly carry a firearm in most areas of most National Forests. It can be an issue if a weapon is carried in a concealed manner in which case the wearer/owner needs to have a legitimate concealed weapon permit for that privilege. It is important you know what is the requirement for the area you are using since any one of the circumstances noted above may apply.

It is unlawful to discharge a firearm, air rifle, or gas gun or other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or,
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby a person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge, or,
(3) Into or within any cave.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Quick Google of this issue brought this up (re: Gifford Pinchot National Forest, which happens to be where I am), but it works great as a guide. Interesting points in it:

It is legal to openly carry a firearm in most areas of most National Forests. It can be an issue if a weapon is carried in a concealed manner in which case the wearer/owner needs to have a legitimate concealed weapon permit for that privilege. It is important you know what is the requirement for the area you are using since any one of the circumstances noted above may apply.

It is unlawful to discharge a firearm, air rifle, or gas gun or other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or,
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby a person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge, or,
(3) Into or within any cave.

I like #3. Seems to make sense to me. 1 and 2 are similar to here with specifics as I've noted before. Another local exception I know of is in SC. They run deer with dogs there. Somebody releases the dogs on one side of a unit (one unit = app. 1000ac) while others wait on the other side of the unit with 12ga slugs, sitting in chairs bolted to the tops of their trucks along the roadside. When the deer pour out of the woods the shooting starts. Wildest damn thing I've ever seen. There's local exceptions everywhere.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Just talked to the LEO. The holder of a license to CCW is exempt from the 'unloaded' WMA issue on the Sam. Of course, you still can't carry in the Ranger Office.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Of course, you still can't carry in the Ranger Office.

Sure you can.

 

[footdale]

Quick Google of this issue brought this up (re: Gifford Pinchot National Forest, which happens to be where I am), but it works great as a guide. Interesting points in it:

It is legal to openly carry a firearm in most areas of most National Forests. It can be an issue if a weapon is carried in a concealed manner in which case the wearer/owner needs to have a legitimate concealed weapon permit for that privilege. It is important you know what is the requirement for the area you are using since any one of the circumstances noted above may apply.

It is unlawful to discharge a firearm, air rifle, or gas gun or other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:

(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or,
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby a person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge, or,
(3) Into or within any cave.

The shooters at the place that Zuki-Ron originally was talking about (Carnage Boulder) blatantly violate #2. As you're driving up the trail you come to the shooting grounds where you wait for them to stop shooting. Most simply stand there and point their weapon down and wait for you to cross the range giving you an irritated look. Not a very comforting feeling. This has been like this for at least the 5 years I've been in Colorado and I'm sure long before that. The FS knows about it but doesn't do anything. The only thing that will eventually happen is the trail will be closed.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

The shooters at the place that Zuki-Ron originally was talking about (Carnage Boulder) blatantly violate #2. As you're driving up the trail you come to the shooting grounds where you wait for them to stop shooting. Most simply stand there and point their weapon down and wait for you to cross the range giving you an irritated look. Not a very comforting feeling. This has been like this for at least the 5 years I've been in Colorado and I'm sure long before that. The FS knows about it but doesn't do anything. The only thing that will eventually happen is the trail will be closed.

Yeah, ECKSJAY and I kinda got off topic a little. Disapointing about the FS folks. Don't stop at the front desk when you call. Demand (and wait for) the ranger or the LEO. Talk to them directly, but politely. Bring up liability and compliance with existing regs. Keep after them.

 

[dizzymac]

How about its just plain stupid to shoot on, near, over,toward,in the vinicity,etc.etc. (you get the idea) of any road, NF or not. It comes down to safety and as a gun owner I am responsible for where that discharged round ends up hitting.
I would not want to live with knowing I took out some poor kid out on an ATV or wheelin' with his parents 'cause I decide to go "plinking" where I shouldn't.
Of course that won't happen here in the White Mountain National Forest because about the only thing you can do is camp, hike and fish ( that lure better not be loaded Mr.!!)

 

[XJ Dreamin']

How about its just plain stupid to shoot on, near, over,toward,in the vinicity,etc.etc. (you get the idea) of any road, NF or not. It comes down to safety...

That's the general idea. All the more reason for the FS there to get on the ball and shut these guys down, because the FS will be included in the ensuing suit when someone does get hurt. All the more reason, as well, to keep after the Ranger and LEO.