rebuttle to no traction and unseated coils...lol

1

1-tonxj

NAXJA Member
NAXJA Member
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Colorado
i'm banned from CherokeeForum...lol...So i must reply to Frank.Z in here to this post in a thread on CF... I do not beleive an unseated coild yields bad traction...It does cause issues on fast rides with compression only controlled by shock until re-seated , but fixed with trapping the coil.


Taken from CherokeeForum...i'm banned...lol...so will reply here...lol

SeriousOffroad-Wrote : Droop is movement of the axle or tire downward (Down Travel)
Stuffing a tire refers to the upward movement. (Up Travel)

Droop is controlled by the shortest component connected to either side of the axle. Often times it's limited my shocks or brakelines that are too short for the application. limiting straps are always a wise addition to any rig that has excessive down travel.

Up Travel is limited by the tallest component. This should be a properly installed bump stop. Shocks that are too long will act as bump stops and they will not last very long doing so.

Excessive droop may look good in a poser pics but it really serves no purpose. Once a coil unseats you've pretty much used up all of the useful articulation since you're now relying on the unsprung weight of the axle to maintain tire contact with the ground. Without additional weight from the rig, that wheel looses traction.

Keeping all four wheels firmly planted provides greater control and traction.


I HI-lighted the part I don't beleive you're completely correct on , as i've tried both and have my suspension set up currently based on limiting travel and aloowing coils to unseat...I think the big issue with unseated coil is when they unload and reload quickly the only part of the suspension absorbing the compression is the...SHOCK...until coil re-seats , which only seems an issue when going fast , and on my set up will be easily cured by ...TRAPPING... the coils TOP&BOTTOM...but as far as traction I don't think it has hurt me...

spring creek video




chinaman's gulch 1-ton at 1:10 and 4:10 coils unseated both obstacle boggets at 12psi...which is like street pressure for a radial and not nearly low enough for traction .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6_gtEfPLc0
 
when your unsprung weight is a third of the total weight of your rig you might be right but for most rigs without 500lb axles once you fully unload the coils you arent applying any pressure to that tire other than the unsprung weight of the axle/tire combo....tis simple physics fool
not to say with lockers and heavy axles you cant make it....just pointless to have that much droop....
 
eflores said:
when your unsprung weight is a third of the total weight of your rig you might be right but for most rigs without 500lb axles once you fully unload the coils you arent applying any pressure to that tire other than the unsprung weight of the axle/tire combo....tis simple physics fool
not to say with lockers and heavy axles you cant make it....just pointless to have that much droop....
Click to expand...


So when making statements about what works and what does not should we assume a stock-ish rig on 33's ...I don't think so...And if you unseat even an 1/8th inch you removed the sprung weight from that coil /corner , And how many XJ with stock axles enseat even just a hair yet grab traction just fine ...plenty that i see.... My XJ has Big axles/tires , But i think it still applies since the statement on suspension is a blanket statement for what works , and I prove that wrong every time I take it out on the trail , which is proof from putting it into practice not parroting popular opinion .
 
time2getdirty said:
come run penrose.
Click to expand...


I'd love to ,but the XJ is sitting in Dustin's shop getting tube bent in/around it ...A cage plus a trailer should = good video this year . I'd love to sell the Boggers and get a set of 43 sx , But the boggers are around 75-80 percent ,and everyone looking at used tires wants free tires...lol...and I'm saving for an atlas since the 2.72 gearing and 40's suuuuuuuucks even with 5.13's on the bigger rocks when more than 1 tire at a time is trying to climb rocks bigger than the tires ...4.3 should be good with 40-44 which is as big as I'd ever go on 1-ton axles ... If I actually started doing some of my own work I'd probably have the coin for the Atlas and 43's already , but it's just 2 easy to drop it off at a shop .
 
im no expert but there is also leverage created when the body pushes down on the stuffed tires side of the axle, the longer the axle the more leverage. unseated coils can create unstable conditions and the only way to trap a loose spring from falling out is by limiting up travel
 
4x4wagon said:
im no expert but there is also leverage created when the body pushes down on the stuffed tires side of the axle, the longer the axle the more leverage. unseated coils can create unstable conditions and the only way to trap a loose spring from falling out is by limiting up travel
Click to expand...


I think you mean limit down travel not up...But I ran unseated all last year ,and my rig was possibly...by far the most stable rig on the runs ...now unseated coils do seem to create some issue when re-loading under speed , but that issue is resolved with trapping them top/bottom ...which wears out the coil over time ,But hey nothing lasts forever on trail rig if you use it ...And yes there is certainly force being applied to the drooped side by the compressed side ...be it a full width axle or not .
 
i meant up travel limit staps or shocks stop down travel the bump stop keeps the spring from falling out if the spring is off the upper seat yours may not be so extreme that it has the room to fall out but if the shock is long enough the spring will fall out unless you make the bump longer
 
4x4wagon said:
i meant up travel limit staps or shocks stop down travel the bump stop keeps the spring from falling out if the spring is off the upper seat yours may not be so extreme that it has the room to fall out but if the shock is long enough the spring will fall out unless you make the bump longer
Click to expand...


Oh it unseats way past the stock coil tower and bump stop holder, ...about 6 inches past it, So I sleeved that bump tower with 3/16th pipe so it does not fall of under droop ...I need to a do set of bump stops ...currently my shocks are bump stops...And limit straps to stop using the shock as the limit strap which puts all the weight on that poor shock and stock xj shock mount ...I'll be doing the limit straps and bump stops when i get the xj back , but I'll also be doing longer shocks in the rear and adding a shock hoop into the cage for the longer rear shocks ,which this is why I waited to limit/bump stop accordingly since I knew the set up would change .
 
IMO excessive droop becomes a hindrance when encountering a more vertical object with the dropping tire. To overcome said object with the front axle, the control arms must move up and forward, hindering the intended forward movement. A unseated spring on a front or rear fully locked 4x4, has about as much use as asking your girl friend to get out and push. But then again, that may be all that's needed.
 
RangerRick said:
IMO excessive droop becomes a hindrance when encountering a more vertical object with the dropping tire. To overcome said object with the front axle, the control arms must move up and forward, hindering the intended forward movement. A unseated spring on a front or rear fully locked 4x4, has about as much use as asking your girl friend to get out and push. But then again, that may be all that's needed.
Click to expand...


It's been working so far , but this season I plan to have adjustable limit straps this will allow me see what really does not work ,but from what i've seen the extreme flex gives much greater stability and has allowed the jeep to effortlessly work obstacles that have left the limit strapped crowd tippy and tipped over on ...also adjustable straps would allow the limiting of travel and un-limiting when one set up works best .
 
I dunno about all this un-seated coil stuff......

But I LOL'd a lot seeing all the rock stacking going on in that first vid..... I mean WTF? It's on tons and 44's fer cryin out loud..... :roflmao: Just looked so wrong..... :dunno:
 
YELLAHEEP said:
I dunno about all this un-seated coil stuff......

But I LOL'd a lot seeing all the rock stacking going on in that first vid..... I mean WTF? It's on tons and 44's fer cryin out loud..... :roflmao: Just looked so wrong..... :dunno:
Click to expand...


Thems only 39.5's...lol...But yeah the guys were a little quick to start tossing the rocks...lol...Which I drove around them , and you can hear Ciril ...(sp check his name lol) stating how does he keep missing my rocks...lol...Because I'm driving around them baby...lol...which ended up with me driving next to tree line to get around them.
 
1-tonxj said:
Thems only 39.5's...lol...But yeah the guys were a little quick to start tossing the rocks...lol...Which I drove around them , and you can hear Ciril ...(sp check his name lol) stating how does he keep missing my rocks...lol...Because I'm driving around them baby...lol...which ended up with me driving next to tree line to get around them.
Click to expand...

I stack a lot less rocks when I run that trail on my 35"s, lol. But for what it's worth I agree with you to a point, droop can't hurt, and I find that my long travel helps me a lot, even when it's just I sprung weight on the down side of the axle, it still helps maybe just a little but often that little bit is all you need.

I've always thought that it'd be cool to add some kinda devise to keep the coils in place even when they go past the bump stop and wanna fall right out( a problem I've had offer, ask Lopez) but I really don't think it would help anything except that it looks cool to have all that "flex"! Honestly though I think it's better to let the wheelin do the talkin! Unless your wanting to build a mall crawler or a ramp rig! Which really doesn't impress me, or most people that actually know
How to wheel a jeep!
 
I'm gonna agree with FrankZ on this one.....
 
I'm with JD, I think building for greater droop than compression is the right way to go, in that it helps to maintain a low COG, which is vital. I know Frank agrees -- but, while droop is generally a good thing, like all things, you can have too much. Will too much make your rig not work? I guess not, as long as you can retain your springs -- having to replace coils that fall out is kinda dumb. But you certainly are getting a very minimal amount of traction assistance from a wheel that is only bearing the weight of the axle and perhaps some down pressure from the opposite wheel.

Personally I think keeping the rig in balance is more important than giant droop/RTI numbers, and if you are minimizing uptravel, then overdoing the droop makes balance difficult, and you'll end up teetertottering over everything.
 
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