P.O.S. internal slave cylinder, and some hopeful thoughts.

[thechief86]

ok, so i have an '84 xj 4cylinder, 5sp, 4x4, 2door with manual everything.
when i got it, the clutch master cylinder had been leaking for a long time, and a couple weeks ago i got fed up with it and replaced the clutch master cylinder. (once i did this, the jeep felt like a new truck)
so fast forward to now. my hydraulic fluid is black and nasty, and i have to pump the clutch to get it to disengage, and i have to speed shift unless i wanna pump the clutch. there's no puddle of brake fluid under the jeep, so i don't think the slave is leaking just yet. i was thinking of replacing the master cylinder again under warranty(just gonna say it quit working), and making more of an effort to bleed the lines until i have nice, clean fluid.
this whole idea is in a blind effort to not have to pull out my transmission just yet, because it's been raining a lot, and starting to get cold. also, i have no money for new parts. if i did, i'd be looking for an ax5 or ax15 to swap in, along with another motor that actually has some cahones.
any ideas?

 

[joe_peters]

Brake/clutch hydraulic fluid is hygroscopic--that is a ten-dollar word for the fact that it draws moisture from the atmosphere.

Black and nasty is contamination, contaminated fluid = fail.

Flush the fluid and see what you end up with before blaming the MC.

 

[Pelican]

I don't mean to insult, but are you sure you have an internal slave? My '85 5sp had an external slave. Not real easy to remove to replace or bleed (because of the nut jammed in next to the frame rail) but a lot easier than pulling the transmission.

I don't personally know which slave the '84 has but I have seen only external slaves at parts houses such as RockAuto, O'Reilly, etc. but they've been wrong before.

Also, unlike the typical master, the slave cylinder will not necessarily leak when it fails.

 

[cruiser54]

I don't mean to insult, but are you sure you have an internal slave? My '85 5sp had an external slave. Not real easy to remove to replace or bleed (because of the nut jammed in next to the frame rail) but a lot easier than pulling the transmission.

I don't personally know which slave the '84 has but I have seen only external slaves at parts houses such as RockAuto, O'Reilly, etc. but they've been wrong before.

Also, unlike the typical master, the slave cylinder will not necessarily leak when it fails.

I'm with you, Pelican. That stupid internal slave came out after the 4.0. So that would be 87 or later.

OP-look under your Jeep and you will find the slave cylinder mounted outside the trans.The factory screwed up and put Dot 3 or Dot 4 fluid in the early Jeep clutch hydraulic systems. Unfortunately, the cylinders were made in England and our DOT fluids were not compatible. The factory recommended fix was to replace the master, slave, and the hose between the two. The hose was disintegrating and putting crusty abrasive crap into the cylinders causing repeat failures.

 

[thechief86]

I'm with you, Pelican. That stupid internal slave came out after the 4.0. So that would be 87 or later.

OP-look under your Jeep and you will find the slave cylinder mounted outside the trans.The factory screwed up and put Dot 3 or Dot 4 fluid in the early Jeep clutch hydraulic systems. Unfortunately, the cylinders were made in England and our DOT fluids were not compatible. The factory recommended fix was to replace the master, slave, and the hose between the two. The hose was disintegrating and putting crusty abrasive crap into the cylinders causing repeat failures.

really? well that would be swell if it wasn't an internal slave cylinder! i haven't looked under there, but i did assume that the transmission was the pukegoat ba/10-5 with an internal slave. i had never heard otherwise until now, and this is my first pre-renix xj. lemme check stuff out closer, and i'm gonna do what joe peters said, mainly because he's almost always right, lol. thanks fellas.
EDIT: HA! you guys were right! the slave is an external one, and that ISN'T the pukegoat! what tranny is that? it doesn't have the clamshell thing going on, but it is a 5spd.... would that be an ax5?

 

[dobbs571]

My 85 was external slave with AX5 and $ banger. I would flush the system like stated before .I just replyed to a nother post a fu days ago about this same thing use cluch fulid not brake fluid. Both will draw water out of the air thats the reason wheel cyl and MC rust and brake lines from the water. I flush my cluch MC and system once a yr along with my brakes. Makes a big diffaince in the way they work.One thing you can do is get speed bleaders for slave and wheel cyl and for the front cal .Once installed you turn them about 1/4 turn they have a check valve built inside them all you have to do is pump new fulid thru and close the valve when you are finished makes it easey for one person to do. I can completley flush my cluch and brake system in about 15 min go thru about 1qt of brake fliud and one bottle of cluch fluid.

 

[Pelican]

Well, Joe didn't get into the slave question but he (and you) are, of course, correct about flushing the system. I don't remember whether you can get at the bleeder screw to do this with the slave installed but, in any event, the book says to unbolt the slave, remove the push rod and compress the piston/plunger into the cylinder with a c-clamp or equivalent before bleeding.

I am sure a tool exists to easily get at the second screw I mentioned above, but it's a tool I don't have. I made a curved "handle" out a piece of heavy duty coat hanger wire that fit into a half inch socket to help turn the nut after it is loose. For your sake, I hope someone will chime in if they know of an easier way to do this. As I think about it, I wonder if a socket with a u-joint built in (not sure what you call them) would work. There isn't room for a regular u-joint extension.

I had replaced a couple of masters before the slave first failed on a trip to my wife's small Louisiana hometown (home of the infamous brothers Huey and Earl Long for the historically inclined). I felt sorry for the local mechanic I found to do the replacement on Saturday afternoon as he sweated through the better part of two hours doing what he probably thought would be a 20 or 30 minute job.

I hadn't heard about the Dot 3 fiasco. I don't know if this had been corrected by '85 but my own experience would seem to suggest maybe not. There is only a short piece of rubber hose to provide a flexible joint between the steel lines, but I guess it doesn't take much.

Keep us updated us as you get into the project.

 

[Pelican]

I see dobbs571's post and he obviously knows what he is talking about, so it is not necessary to remove the slave to bleed - good news!

 

[cruiser54]

The fluid fiasco was not corrected until late 86. Mostly because in 1987 the switched suppliers for the cylinders and hose-not from England. I highly suggest replacing the hose along with the slave cylinder as the hose is deteriorating on the inside and will still put abrasive chunks into the system. With the new hose, new master, and new slave you can use regular brake fluid as these new components are not manufactured in England by Girling.

 

[dobbs571]

I love the the speed bleaders put them on every thing I own .Makes bleading and flushing so much easyer .They are about 4 dollars a pc but being able to just crack the blead screw and jump in and start pumping by your self makes it worth while.And you dont have to try not to get brake fluid all over you

 

[thechief86]

sweet. well, i'm gonna try to bleed it with fresh clutch fluid then, and see where that gets me. that bleeder does look like a total pain in the arse to get to, but still, in any case, at least i don't have to remove the transmission to get to it!!! why the hell would they go from a system like this that is at least somewhat serviceable to the internal crap that was on my 87? i guess it was one of those things where they wanted to make it so people would bring it to the dealer to get it fixed, but in the end, it actually sent a ton of xj's to their grave. i've bought several that were parked for good because of a bad slave cylinder, and usually i just replace it, and go about my business.

 

[cruiser54]

sweet. well, i'm gonna try to bleed it with fresh clutch fluid then, and see where that gets me. that bleeder does look like a total pain in the arse to get to, but still, in any case, at least i don't have to remove the transmission to get to it!!! why the hell would they go from a system like this that is at least somewhat serviceable to the internal crap that was on my 87? i guess it was one of those things where they wanted to make it so people would bring it to the dealer to get it fixed, but in the end, it actually sent a ton of xj's to their grave. i've bought several that were parked for good because of a bad slave cylinder, and usually i just replace it, and go about my business.

If you think making it an internal slave is bad, how about this? The original internal slaves were made of plastic and were failing as they Jeeps were deliverd off the transport truck.

I'd replace that hose if I were you...........

 

[thechief86]

If you think making it an internal slave is bad, how about this? The original internal slaves were made of plastic and were failing as they Jeeps were deliverd off the transport truck.

I'd replace that hose if I were you...........

dang.... that is chitty.
as for the hose, i'm not gonna do that just quite yet, mainly because i'm poor. but as soon as a little money comes my way, i'll replace the hose, master and slave cylinders altogether. can i just make my own hose with steel brake line and a flare tool?
p.s., you guys were right about some more stuff, that bleeder screw is a pain in the balls to get to! i think i can get on it with this one line wrench that i heated with a torch and bent, though.:firedevil

 

[dobbs571]

Thinking back to my 85 I had I remember I got a 2IN body plug found where the bleader screw was and useing a sharp punch and made a dint in the floor by the bleader then pulled the carpet back found the dint sticking up and used a hole saw to cut a 2IN hole so I could get to it from on top. When I was finished just poped the plug in and fliped thr carpet back. This may help some one .

 

[thechief86]

Thinking back to my 85 I had I remember I got a 2IN body plug found where the bleader screw was and useing a sharp punch and made a dint in the floor by the bleader then pulled the carpet back found the dint sticking up and used a hole saw to cut a 2IN hole so I could get to it from on top. When I was finished just poped the plug in and fliped thr carpet back. This may help some one .

SWEET! i'm gonna do THAT. i most likely will be permanently removing the carpet from this one shortly after i get the lift and bigger tires on, because the purpose of this one is strictly gonna be trail duty i think. not sure i wanna DD a 4 banger xj with 32's on it....

 

[Pelican]

Just a thought but I don't think you necessarily need to replace the steel line assuming it's not corroded all to hell. That line is in two sections joined by a length of brake hose which provides the flexibility to unbolt and move the slave. All you will need to replace the hose is probably a foot of brake hose and possibly a couple of clamps. I don't recall the diameter but easy enough to measure. You should be able to see the hose looking up from underneath the Jeep.

 

[thechief86]

yeah, i can see it, but it doesn't have normal hose clamps. it has crimp-on brake style connections on it. the line looks fine to me, though, inside and out(judging by what i could see from having the line off of the master cylinder) i'm gonna mess with it tomorrow, as well as put my lift on. with it up in the air a bit, everything will be much easier to get to.

 

[thechief86]

so that slave cylinder finally got to the point that i couldn't pump up the clutch and get it to work, so i decided to go ahead and try to replace it. holy crap, the internal slave is almost easier to get to. i got COVERED in brake fluid, rounded off one of the nuts, had to use a nut extractor, along with about 6 feet of 3/8 drive extensions and a swivel, and it was STILL a pain to get the nuts loose. not to mention the crappy fitting that i had to 'coax' off with a pair of vice grips and a lot of bad words. and yes, i did put the boogered fitting back on. if the slave cylinder goes out again, it's gonna be someone else's problem. i'm currently waiting on my wife to get home to help me bleed this mother. maybe that'll be a little easier than the rest of this, and i can put it back together(which no doubt will be just as hard as taking it apart. sheesh. and while i was doing all this, my buddy had the audacity to try to buy the pile from me! i totally would have done it, except i know what is left to get this thing trail ready, and i wouldn't screw a friend like that. hopefully i'll get this pile ready to wheel by new year's day.

 

[thechief86]

got it done. man that was Ghey.

 

[dobbs571]

A hint the next time drop the rear drive shaft take off the cross member and lower the trany and tranfer case ,just watch you fan be sure you dont go to far and put the fan in the rad makes changing it a lot easy. And use line whenches on the fittings and like I said put in the speed bleaders they make bleading simple you dont have to have any one to help you . I changed the one on my 85 with no problem took me 45 min at the most I used a pc of wook to push the plunger back in to yhe cyl and used a C clamp blead it and finished installing it .