MY ANGER IS GROWING TO HATRED!

[ECKSJAY]

Is that a rebuttal?

 

[joe_peters]

Is that a rebuttal?

I was hoping it would count as one.

 

[ECKSJAY]

I was hoping it would count as one.

I wouldn't count on it. Battle of wits; bring ammo next time.

 

[iceman2001]

Hatred is a really strong word Joe_Peters.

From an outside observer this really sounds like a case of 'willful blindness'. The firearm dealer, Copeland, had a responsibility to the public to ensure that he only sold firearms to those individuals that met certain state and federal requirements.

Copeland negotiated the purchase with the Aviles (the illegal). Aviles, upon conclusion of the negotiation, provided the cash to Huerta, the stand in. Copeland must have known or should have known that he was actually selling the firearm to Aviles.

Either way, as a firearm dealer, Copeland had a duty to determine which of the two clowns was the purchaser and ascertain his eligibility under state and federal law.

It is interesting that the court although found Copeland guilty, only sentenced him to time served and probation for two years. This suggests that the court felt although it was Copeland's absolute liability, they accepted the possibility of mitigating circumstances.

But for me and the rest of the world looking in to the affairs of the U.S., (I can comment as I have relatives in the U.S. and my wife is also from there), the hatred expressed by the left and the right for each other in the U.S. is self defeating and rather sickening --I don't think that you really wish to lead yourselves to another civil war.

The U.S. citizenry has allowed its corporations to rob and pillage and send you all to the poor-house (1 in 10 of you are in foreclosure, and getting a new job means getting picked up by McDonald's instead of a decent paying manufacturing or professional job) and yet you occupy all of your individual political energy fighting over whether you need less or more government. Whether you should have social programmes or not. Blue or Red.

Joe, spend your energy of getting mad at the real culprits of your system, the people and institutions that are really f*cking over your neighbors and family. Don't let them fool you into thinking this is about the left and the right, that is a sucker's bet.

 

[bjoehandley]

Well said Iceman!

 

[kastein]

Agreed but I don't think this eliminates "reasonable doubt" I've sold a few cars where other people haggle for the buyer. None have borrowed money from the other though .


Is there a law saying you can't borrow money to buy a gun? Maybe the seller wasn't paying attention during the cash transfer. Alot of possibilities but I think him telling the guy to give the weapon back is enough "reasonable doubt" for me.

A car is not a firearm.

yeah, it's a multi thousand pound wheeled tool of destruction that for some reason we let any yahoo drive while drinking coffee and reading the morning paper or texting their significant other. Truth be told I'd rather everyone in the country had a gun, and fewer people had cars, people wouldn't be using the guns two or three times a day on the same public roads I am on.

But for me and the rest of the world looking in to the affairs of the U.S., (I can comment as I have relatives in the U.S. and my wife is also from there), the hatred expressed by the left and the right for each other in the U.S. is self defeating and rather sickening --I don't think that you really wish to lead yourselves to another civil war.

The U.S. citizenry has allowed its corporations to rob and pillage and send you all to the poor-house (1 in 10 of you are in foreclosure, and getting a new job means getting picked up by McDonald's instead of a decent paying manufacturing or professional job) and yet you occupy all of your individual political energy fighting over whether you need less or more government. Whether you should have social programmes or not. Blue or Red.

Joe, spend your energy of getting mad at the real culprits of your system, the people and institutions that are really f*cking over your neighbors and family. Don't let them fool you into thinking this is about the left and the right, that is a sucker's bet.

1 - a civil war will not happen, the lines between left and right are not easily drawn state by state. When you look at the map, large cities are generally more left leaning while smaller cities and less populated areas are generally more right leaning.

2 - most of the people who are in foreclosure just learned a real hard lesson in "live within your means" because they knowingly borrowed too much, more than they could even afford in a best-case, rose colored glasses world. I'm doing just fine right now... my only debts are student loans, I don't have a credit card, never have, never will, and I have money put away. I could probably get a mortgage for 150k or more and buy a house with it - but I'm not even considering it because I am not sure I want to stay with the company I'm working for, and as such don't consider my financial future solid enough to make that kind of decision. I'm looking at properties that fit my budget instead. Everyone who was foreclosed and will be foreclosed signed the paper that said they would pay back that money, under those terms, and... the reason it's called a mortgage is because it is "an agreement unto death." Look it up.

The rest of the people in foreclosure due to this mess viewed their homes as an investment, instead of property, and now that it's a losing investment ("under water") they are selfishly trying to dump it instead of carrying through on their part of the agreement. Real estate is a long, long term investment generally... if they were thinking properly, they would hold onto it until the value goes back up again, as long as they can make the payments. But then again, that would have required careful planning and saving money, something Americans are no longer good at.

 

[bigalpha]

yeah, it's a multi thousand pound wheeled tool of destruction that for some reason we let any yahoo drive while drinking coffee and reading the morning paper or texting their significant other.

This, for sure.

 

[Darky]

A car is not a firearm.



Well yeah, there are laws against straw purchasing, which is what was alleged, charged, proven, and convicted. The event was witnessed as testified, the evidence was presented, and a jury of the defendant's peers found it to be enough to convict. It doesn't get any more clear than that. This isn't an 'alleged' act that you typically see shown in the papers where charges were filed and it hasn't even been through the court yet... Given the information in the article and knowing the law, it's obvious he knowingly sold the firearm to someone buying it for another who wasn't eligible. AKA: "straw purchase".

^This. The onus is on the seller to ensure the buyer is legally allowed to buy a firearm. If there was any doubt (which to me, if the guy is talking to someone else who speaks no English about the gun and having him check it out, I'd have doubts) he has the responsibility to either deny the sale or take extra steps to be absolutely certain.

 

[iceman2001]

..1 - a civil war will not happen, the lines between left and right are not easily drawn state by state. When you look at the map, large cities are generally more left leaning while smaller cities and less populated areas are generally more right leaning.
..

Not all civil wars are east-west, north-south. Look at Sri Lanka, El Salvador, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Guatemala.. My concern, shared by many, is that the attitudes of hatred and contempt by U.S. citizens toward fellow citizens and elected representatives simply because of differences in philosophy on how best to provide to the entire citizenry can only lead to violence. Do you really seek harm to your neighbor simply because he votes Democrat or Republican?

To wish such is absurd. Your political system is a two party system operating under the theory that a balance between the ideologies would serve the general population effectively, to have hatred for the other party suggests that you somehow believe that a one party system would be preferable, yet you have an even stronger stated hatred for the one party communist systems.

2 - most of the people who are in foreclosure just learned a real hard lesson in "live within your means" because they knowingly borrowed too much, more than they could even afford in a best-case, rose colored glasses world. .. .. Everyone who was foreclosed and will be foreclosed signed the paper that said they would pay back that money .. .. they are selfishly trying to dump it instead of carrying through on their part of the agreement..

All readers are sure to be happy that you are doing well and living within your means, but please have some compassion and understanding for those that were pulled down by your country's economic downturn.

They are not "selfishly trying to dump" their properties. They cannot get new financing! Their mortgage holder has called their notes because the amount owed exceeds the resale value of the property. They are faced with huge lump sum payment demands. If their $300,000 property was financed at 75% and is now worth only $200,000, their mortgage holder is demanding they pay pay down $75,000.

 

[kastein]

I don't hate anyone for what they voted, heck some of my best friends voted for Obama. But that's got nothing to do with the topic this thread was originally started on.

Hadn't realized that banks were demanding that people pay the difference, from what I've seen, being underwater just means that IF you sell it right now, you take the loss, while if you stay put and keep paying your agreed mortgage payments, you keep the house. If it is as you say, I fully agree, that's a pretty crappy position to be in.

 

[AIbandit]

yeah, it's a multi thousand pound wheeled tool of destruction that for some reason we let any yahoo drive while drinking coffee and reading the morning paper or texting their significant other. Truth be told I'd rather everyone in the country had a gun, and fewer people had cars, people wouldn't be using the guns two or three times a day on the same public roads I am on.

My point wasn't about the vehicle at all it was about transactions and people haggling for others that just don't have the skill.

Just trying to establish reasonable doubt which is all our "Justice" system needs to throw a not guilty verdict.
Or atleast that's how it should be but jurors emotions/idiocy tend to get in the way.

 

[Darky]

I don't hate anyone for what they voted, heck some of my best friends voted for Obama. But that's got nothing to do with the topic this thread was originally started on.

Hadn't realized that banks were demanding that people pay the difference, from what I've seen, being underwater just means that IF you sell it right now, you take the loss, while if you stay put and keep paying your agreed mortgage payments, you keep the house. If it is as you say, I fully agree, that's a pretty crappy position to be in.

I know of a couple people who have lost their homes out here and it's been largely because they just didn't want to pay anymore. They could afford it but didn't want to stop buying a bunch of other stuff.

 

[bigalpha]

I know of a couple people who have lost their homes out here and it's been largely because they just didn't want to pay anymore. They could afford it but didn't want to stop buying a bunch of other stuff.

 

[tbburg]

Haven't heard of anybody forced out of their home because of a "lump sum" owed due to depreciation. Most of them are getting hurt because they were in adjustable rate mortgages, with low introductory rates. They weren't planning on keeping the AR mortgages. They planned to re-finance well before the adjustment kicked in, but found that they couldn't get a new mortgage after the real estate down-turn that would pay off their existing mortgage and/or give them a 20K bonus due to appreciation. Now they either can't afford the higher rate, or don't want to pay it(Too much new crap to buy).
Either that, or they lost their job.

 

[mcantar18c]

Not all civil wars are east-west, north-south. Look at Sri Lanka, El Salvador, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Guatemala.. My concern, shared by many, is that the attitudes of hatred and contempt by U.S. citizens toward fellow citizens and elected representatives simply because of differences in philosophy on how best to provide to the entire citizenry can only lead to violence. Do you really seek harm to your neighbor simply because he votes Democrat or Republican?

To wish such is absurd. Your political system is a two party system operating under the theory that a balance between the ideologies would serve the general population effectively, to have hatred for the other party suggests that you somehow believe that a one party system would be preferable, yet you have an even stronger stated hatred for the one party communist systems.

All readers are sure to be happy that you are doing well and living within your means, but please have some compassion and understanding for those that were pulled down by your country's economic downturn.

They are not "selfishly trying to dump" their properties. They cannot get new financing! Their mortgage holder has called their notes because the amount owed exceeds the resale value of the property. They are faced with huge lump sum payment demands. If their $300,000 property was financed at 75% and is now worth only $200,000, their mortgage holder is demanding they pay pay down $75,000.

Could be worse, Ice... I mean think about it, we could be Canadian.

 

[iceman2001]

Could be worse, Ice... I mean think about it, we could be Canadian.

I'll preface this post with warning that I know I'll piss several of you off, and you will retort with everything from "Go stick your head in a snow drift" to "Up yours you commie pinko socialist", just figured I would post anyway on the off chance some readers might be interested.


I gotta tell you guy, the Canadian economy is pretty good, the heath care is great and covered primarily through general taxation so it's not a hardship for our lower income citizens.

Stories about needing bureaucratic approval for treatment are just B.S., I go see my doctor (his name is Gervais, I've known him for about 10 years), we discuss my cholesterol and his squash game and he prescribes me 10 mg of Lipitor. My wife broke her ankle doing aerobics about 2 years ago and everything was covered except I paid extra (i think $80) for a walking cast, the plaster cast would have been $0. My 80 year old mother has had cataract surgery in both eyes, they replaced her lenses with artificial ones and she can see great now. My brother's wife had some complications giving birth to my new niece two years ago and required an emergency C-section, all covered and never once has any doctor needed to consult with anyone except other doctors if they need specialist advice.

Our political system is a constitutional monarchy which operates like a cross between a representational democratic republic like the U.S. has and the parliamentary monarchy that the U.K. has. We have two main parties, the Conservatives and the Liberals and then several smaller parties, The NDP, The Green, The Block. I understand we have a two Communist parties that manage to get a couple of dozen votes each but disagree with each other of some fundamental issues, way to split the lost-cause vote guys

We have a greater separation of church and state then the U.S. has in so much that religious prerogatives do not enter political discussion and debate, our political infrastructure is there to administer our country, not dictate our manner of living and beliefs, that is the individual's business thank you.

Down sides.. our cell phones cost too much and so do our Internet connections. Some of our government levels don't have a clue on how to not waste cash. We managed to spend a billion f*cking dollars for security on the G8 and G20 international economic conferences this summer and still managed to have a police car start on fire, and I heard that the City of Toronto just spent $100,000 on an aluminum palm tree. What the hell for, I have no idea, but I'm sure the reason is just as absurd as the price.

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

 

[5-90]

Joe, bear the following in mind...

"In a jury trial, your fate will now depend on twelve people who are too stupid to get out of Jury Duty."

 

[hubs97xj]

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

Yeah, the beer is decent, but your bacon is ****.

 

[mcantar18c]

I gotta tell you guy, the Canadian economy is pretty good, the heath care is great and covered primarily through general taxation so it's not a hardship for our lower income citizens.

I'd rather have a healthcare system that *I* have to pay for only when *I* need it, than have to pay for it in taxes my entire life and only really use it once every few years. On that note, if I break my arm and can't afford a hospital bill, I'll make myself a splint and wear that until it heals rather than ask everybody else to pay for my a$$.
Also, for what its worth, I have free health care. As do everybody else in the military. Funny thing about that... almost all of the military people I know, including myself, have private doctors that we pay for out of pocket and prefer to use them rather than use the military's health care system for most things.

Now, that doesn't mean I'm a heartless prick... if little Johnny down the street has cancer or something and his parents can't afford the treatment, I'll gladly help out any way that I can. But I'll help out how I choose to and because I want to, not cause the government is forcing me to via taxes.

Stories about needing bureaucratic approval for treatment are just B.S., I go see my doctor (his name is Gervais, I've known him for about 10 years), we discuss my cholesterol and his squash game and he prescribes me 10 mg of Lipitor. My wife broke her ankle doing aerobics about 2 years ago and everything was covered except I paid extra (i think $80) for a walking cast, the plaster cast would have been $0. My 80 year old mother has had cataract surgery in both eyes, they replaced her lenses with artificial ones and she can see great now. My brother's wife had some complications giving birth to my new niece two years ago and required an emergency C-section, all covered and never once has any doctor needed to consult with anyone except other doctors if they need specialist advice.

Great, glad your system works for you. YOU CAN KEEP IT. And if anybody in my country agrees with you, more power to em... they can go move to Canada, nobody's trying to stop them.

Our political system is a constitutional monarchy which operates like a cross between a representational democratic republic like the U.S. has and the parliamentary monarchy that the U.K. has.

Uh... yeah... us Americans have this thing, we really don't like being under the rule of a monarchy.

We have two main parties, the Conservatives and the Liberals and then several smaller parties

So uh, what were you saying about our party disagreements being bad for us?

We have a greater separation of church and state then the U.S. has in so much that religious prerogatives do not enter political discussion and debate, our political infrastructure is there to administer our country, not dictate our manner of living and beliefs, that is the individual's business thank you.

That's debatable.

Down sides.. our cell phones cost too much and so do our Internet connections. Some of our government levels don't have a clue on how to not waste cash. We managed to spend a billion f*cking dollars for security on the G8 and G20 international economic conferences this summer and still managed to have a police car start on fire,

Ya know, you've been talking like you're so much better than us, but it doesn't sound to me like you're all that different.

the City of Toronto just spent $100,000 on an aluminum palm tree. What the hell for, I have no idea, but I'm sure the reason is just as absurd as the price.

Easy... cause its Toronto. Its your guys' version of California, nothing but a bunch of nutjobs for the most part. Trust me I know, my entire dad's side is there.

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

I visit my dad's side of the family every few years... mainly to drink beer and stock up on Cadbury's, Aero Bars, insanely large amounts of Smarties, ketchup chips, and maple syrup

 

[ECKSJAY]

But the number one great thing.. have you tried our beer? :canada:

As a fellow of Czech descent, I will politely bow out of this debate since I won't be able to say anything nice.