Lets say you were going to road race an XJ

Hmmm, the top of an XJ is damn light, that's one long thin piece of sheet metal with channels stamped down the length for stiffness, and a couple thin cross braces that are just moulded sheet metal as well going side to side, followed by extremely light weight compression molded fiberboard headliner... The high center of gravity is from the high mounted engine and high ground clearance...

If I was going to lower the center of gravity I would drop the engine as far as possible, and then lower the truck, use low profile tires and some 14" Mustang II wheels to achieve the lowest possible axle to ground clearance. And consider flipping the stock leaf springs so they are inverted and then install an MJ rear end (spring under axle) for another couple inches.

There's enough flex clearance that your biggest problem should quickly become your oil pan. I bet you can slam an XJ if you aren't concerned with having nice wheels and tires, fairly easy up to a certain functional point, anyway after that lowering it further probably stops being a useful race modification and starts becoming a useless cosmetic air bags "laying rails" type of thing.

One last thing, the weight of an all wheel drive setup (NP242 and Dana30 front) might be well worth it.... From what I've seen in sport car and GT series all wheel drive pretty much cleans up even against more powerful cars, the combination can even get your car banned from competition. Front wheels pulling through curves seems to have a very big advantage in making traction.
 
This is a very delicate area only because your options are very limited doing it the cheap way. I do agree with 1bolt here that the weight of the roof line is very light. I wouldn't be too concerned with that if your XJ is a 2door early model with the fiberglass tailgate. Like with 1bolt says about the engine is true also.

The only thing is that lowering the engine might not do as good as lowering the chassis is because of clearance issues you will get with lowering the suspension. Your not going to be able to get the body to go as low. Now I'm going to break down this post hopefully to make it more understandable.

1. Engine

Lowering the engine or raising the engine is a viable way to adjust handling characteristics of any vehicle. The engine being the only large mass that is the highest on the chassis itself has a profound effect on weight distribution in scenarios of turning, less so in forward and backward but still a large effect. The problem with this method is simply because of the type of vehicle we have here to use, a vehicle that has a solid front axle or beam as the same with the rear. Lowering the engine like I mentioned above can cause positive benefits, obviously lowering the center of gravity of the vehicle overall but also reducing the ability to lower the chassis.

Now I believe in my understanding of physics that this option will hurt you more in the long run only because of this; It's a little hard to explain, the actual center of gravity is not the geometrical half of the vehicle, It's actually the geometrical center of the wheels. The wheels center is the load baring plane of the weight of the vehicle. In this case being a Jeep Cherokee what you actually want to do is raise the engine. Bare with me on this, I'm assuming that your going to end up using a 4WD XJ rather than a 2WD XJ (If your going to use a 2WD XJ You will be far, FAR better off converting your front suspension to independent suspension.) to do this project of yours. This is why, when you lower a Cherokee or a Comanche you can only go so close to the engine anyway with your axle, which would be about 2", or 1-1.5" if your brave. Which will allow you to lower the chassis more because the raised engine just allowed more travel.

2. Chassis

Now with the above paragraph in mind, I would like to explain the benefit of a raised engine in this application according to the chassis. Raising your engine will allow for more room to lower in the relation of the chassis to the wheels. This is the important part, like I said before, you want to get any weight of the vehicle as close to the wheels as possible. Being the fact that the rest of the car weighs more than engine itself, it and the fact that the chassis has a more direct influence on handling would benefit you more to have the most weight as close as possible to the ground. So in a simpiler terms raising the motor will allow you to lower the overall weight of the vehicle more than lowering the motor or leaving it.

3. Suspension

First off if you remember reading, I said that if a 2WD Jeep is being used it will be a lot better to convert to independent suspension. A few Jeeps did come with an independent front. So that would be best if that's your route.

The suspension on these things are ancient, no denying that BUT if done right it can come close to competing with independent and can be better than older independent designs. First it is known that solid axle driveline works a little different with suspension than independent does. Clearly as it's name states its independent, each wheel doesn't effect the other wheels in direct relation to each other aside from the indirect relation of weight over the chassis. The axle on the other hand is the opposite, what one wheel does the other is trying to do the opposite. Now the tricky part, the way the chassis sits on top of the axles has a much different physics involved. The best way to describe it really is that it's like driving on a mono spring.

The fact that the front suspension has a 4-link setup helps a great deal in stability rather than leaf springs like the rear setup, I'd say the front is more like a semi-independent system. To take advantage of this you must stiffen it up as much as possible that you can bear because it gets more rough the lower you go because of the lack of suspension travel you will have. The best I find is finding a pair of rising rate springs. These are good for driveability and performance when you want it, you'll won't feel the little bumps but the big ones though you'll FEEL them for sure. On top of that get stiff shocks, not too stiff but a little more than stock would have.

The rear in this case it would be suficiant to do the axle overleaf conversion. The only work really is to weld up shock mounts closer to the center of the axle to allow room for the axle to go on top. The shock mounts are basically in the way. I think I had a post a while back showing pictures of what I mean and what needs to be done. Another option is a 3-way or 4-link (like the front) setup in the back. Lots of work to retrofit but can introduce more tuneability and create a more stable base.

4. Wheels

Wheels and tires obviously is going to do most of the work where grip is concerned and choosing the right ones is important. You can go with smaller wheels to reduce the front profile of the vehicle further and reducing the drag coefficient overall. The problem here is that you can only go so small because of the brakes and also major readjustment of gears and also the availability of good tires. 14 inchers with donuts is not going to help you at all and steam roller tires to makeup for bad quality rubber just introduces more drag. For the latter, too big will increase your coeff. drag and also raise your center of gravity in relation to the track width of the wheels.

For simplicity sake I'd say stay within the 16-18" diameter range and 6-8" in width of the wheels. With these sizes you are more in range of higher quality road going tires. Also, pick a tire size appropriate for the wheels you choose, for a Jeep 45 series would be bare minimum. It would probably be best to get 50 series tires as it will help with absorbing small bumps better. As you get higher in the numbers like (60 65 70 series) the more tire roll you will get because the carcass is taller. Lastly is the offset, this is where people get it wrong a lot of the time. What you want is a offset that is as close to center as possible. Forget the super deep dish wheels there no good for serious on road as well with radical +50 offset wheels too. Take a look at race cars, 99% of them are running wheels with lots of offset but not too much, especially touring cars and GT GT1 GT2 GT3 where most of there tuning is very dependent on taking corners as fast as possible without ruining the tires. Even Indy and Formula1, they don't have deep dish wheels to make the cars wider. Deep dish wheels are no good two main reasons:

1. Weight applied by the vehicle itself is not equally distributed over the entire wheel and tire.

2. It increases the turn throwing arc of the wheels. Which causes chassis instability. (Which we are trying to get rid of as much as possible, cause it's a Jeep)

Overall on this post that I wrote hopefully when you or anyone trying to go the road route for a Jeep will keep this in mind in whatever you make modifications to your Jeep for road racing or want to make a better road mannered Jeep for your daily driver. The best option is to research the matter and make decisions on what is best, try not to go into 4x4 boards or similar try to find racing sites and boards where people do there own racing.

Any questions about this just ask, I hope I was clear enough for the rest of you guys, my mind is all over the place today, little hard to think. I woke up not to long ago.

:cheers:
 
What about the possibility of cutting the 2wd axle and notching to clear the oil pan, like the mini-truck guys do to their frames to clear their axle? I think they call it a c-notch when they do it. You would be able to bring it down a lot further it it is doable...
 
I'd say that it's not recommended to do that. First of all your weakening that beam which will cause it to sag or even bend if a bump is big enough and second, your gain will be minimal, about 1-1.5 MAX. C-notching the frame is a little different than what you suggest. When they c-notch the frame, they are only doing the back because just about every truck that's lowered that far (to the ground) has a IFS. Also when they c-notch they reinforce the frame rails where the c-notch exists. Sorry though, it does sound like a good idea in theory.
 
Wow I guess theres someone who will try anything. I would sell it and start with a better platform. But hey blow your money how ever you want....
 
Remember the OP is talking about "dirt cheap" here.

John: I think your theory sounds better than mine and I agree with trying to lower the chassis as much as possible as a priority.

But at the point when the body was as close to the axles as it can be and still perform (i.e. when the upper control arms necessary up travel becomes the limiting factor) I would immediately look at lowering the engine, to just above where the maximum compression puts all the suspension parts. It would be my second priority.

The XJ/MJ is an off-road vehicle, and as such I suspect there's some considerable compression room before the engine and suspension can contact each other. A racing suspension needs MUCH less travel than an SUV suspension.

On wheel size, I'm confident (but not 100% sure) that stock XJ brakes with a 97+ booster upgrade will both fit in a 14" wheel and also be very sufficient to slow down a race lightened XJ.

remember we're under a dirt cheap budget here. There's no room for 3000 dollar Brembo custom retrofits. The XJ does not have a cheap junk yard big brake upgrade (last I checked) so the stock brakes with a ZJ rear disc conversion is it.

That said 14" wheels give you an half inch closer to the ground with the same relative sidewall which needs to be sufficient size for the tires to absorb enough bumps to keep from losing tractions constantly (think roller skate over gravel). To low a profile sidewall is just as bad as too much and a 14" wheel lets that sidewall still have some meat while getting the whole XJ a half inch lower to the ground (If we assume the same sidewall). Think Indy and F1... low profile tires for sure but no where close to Mexican roller skates (sorry don't know what those are called).

Finding a cheap 14" 5 on 4.5 wheel may be tricky or it may be as close as any junked Mustang II. 1/2 inch is HUGE. Considering there's no big brakes to make a larger rim worth bothering with.

Last thought... The archer brothers competed against Chevy S10's (or were they LUV's still back then?) 2wd s-10's have IFS so I believe the Archer Bros with solid axles not only competed against IFS equipped trucks, they cleaned up... IFS is certainly an advantage no arguing that, but they showed that it is not the be all and end all.
 
Brakes are excluded from the budget for the race.

New honda's (2005+) are 5x4.5, so 14-16" wheels and tires's are easy to come by.


@GTABurnout - telling the guys from "team naxja" to find a better platform is like telling water not to be wet.


All of that said, getting back from King of the Hammers I am _WAY_ burned out and there's no way I could have this build done in time for an August race. I'll probably turn this rig into a 4x truggy and revisit the LeMons idea next year.

Unless I change my mind again in the next week, which may just happen. :)

(oh, and yes, it was my intent to split the beam to make room for the oilpan - I have no concerns about strength there with the resources available to me, and labor isnt factorered).
 
Um, if you guys are so insistant on going down to 14" rims, why not get Ranger/Bronco II rims or muscle car era Ford or Mopar 14" steelies? INstead of using 14's, why not put the shortest possible tires on stock size 15's?
 
As far as I can recall, the rules allow unlimited budget in the area of safety. A lot of the competitors will run a cage for safety (and stiffening the chassis.
 
Yea, I have know people who have done it in the past, said they may have only spent $300 on the car, but after everything was done they spent about a grand each over 4 or 5 people.
 
As far as I can recall, the rules allow unlimited budget in the area of safety. A lot of the competitors will run a cage for safety (and stiffening the chassis.

Actually, a cage, SFI certified seats and 5 point harnesses and fire supression are all required; as well as SFI fire suites, helmets, etc..


Most of that would have carried over from the KOH safety gear Team Naxja has, and I'd have been able to borrow it.


After KOH though, I'm just too burned out. Maybe next year.
 
we got beat to it.

http://jalopnik.com/5396682/porsche...other-heaps-lemons-arse-freeze+a+palooza-2009

You know what endurance road racing has been missing all these years? Jeep Cherokees duking it out with RX-7s and E30s! Some people- bad people- will try to tell you that a Cherokee doesn't belong on a demanding track such as Thunderhill, but Petty Cash Racing disagrees. Will the Cherokee be able to use that AMC inline six power to beat its natural rival, the Mysteries Inc Voyager Turbo minivan?
 
Add an extra leaf to stiffen the rear and do a spring under on the rear axle. Sway bars front and rear. Get a stiffer set of front springs and cut them down if necessary.

Since a significant amount of time will be at WOT, you might benefit from boring the throttle body.

No autos, only manual gear box with no tcase. Select your gear ratios wisely.

Ram air scoop or cowl induction will give you a few HP at speed.

Use a MAP adjuster to help your mixture.

Deepen the oil pan and add a windage tray and synthetic. It will keep the crank out of the oil as much. Not great for long term cam life, but neither is racing.

Change the pulley on the alternator and power steering pump to under drive them. Actually, I might think of dumping the PS. My XJ came with a manual steering setup and it wasn't bad.

Thin synthetic in the manual tranny and diff.

Don't know about the specifics of the race, but make sure you have a good radiator with no obstructions and trim down the blades on the water pump. Can the manual fan and run an electric on a switch.

Lighten everything. Work on your weight balance. Use a small garden tractor type battery and move it to the rear. Only run enough fuel for the race.

If allowed, dump the cat and muffler and shorten the exhaust.

Dump the rear glass and go with .060 plexiglass. Completely strip the interior. Use high power washer and strip all the undercoating.

Deck the block to bring up the compression ratio. Clean up the intake and exhaust ports and match them to the intake and exhaust manifolds.

Renix will be preferable. Use a high altitude CPS or if running a newer HO type system, slice and dice the CPS for the same effect.
 
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