Legalize marijuana

[tompatjr]

My theory on POT is it's illegal and will stay illegal, because ....

1) anyone can easily grow it, I think, so they cant easliy regulate it i.e. TAX it.

2) once you smoke it, it's in your system for 30-45 days, and say you have a accident it's in your system and I'd guess hard to tell prove if your high of not. Not like a good old drunk!

 

[8Mud]

It's been Quasi legal here for a long time. Personnaly I don't think it's any worse than alcohol, but just offers another opprotunity for a suseptable person to become dependant. Some people can and some can't, genetic roulette. Just another opprotunity to screw the pooch.
They stopped busting users with moderate amounts of Cannabis, but regularly roll up the dealers and gangs. A new bunch moves in to deal, they last a few months and then disappear. A cycle I've watched often enough over the past few years.
When a Cop here stops somebody for a check, they use the breathalyzer and then wipe your forehead with a test strip that registers marijuana. Penalties are about the same.
One odd thing about the dealers here, is the same guys dealing are often the same guys you see hanging out in front of the local Mosque. And are likely to see in anti American demostrations. They also favor extortion, the whole gangsta act. They tend to stand out way too much. They often tend to go out of there way, to antagonize Joe citizen. They seem fairly organized, but not too bright. I often wonder who is doing the organizing. My bet is Ex military who got canned for being subverted by fundamentalism in there home country.
Help fight global terrorism, buy home grown.:confused1

 

[5-90]

Actuall, you can legislate morality. In fact, that is one of the primary purposes of government. Laws against murder, sodomy, incest, drugs, fair trade.....those are all the legislation of morality. The issue is who's morality will be legislated. In our society, there is this nebulous center of what is moral behavior and this center find esxpressions in teh changing nature of laws. For example, growing acceptance of homosexuality - I don't care what you think about it just and example - has led to a repeal of a large number of state sodomy laws. Or, changing concepts of race have led to the repeal of laws banning interracial marriage. Hence, morality is always being legislated.
I would not suggest an alternative; the only real alternative being some type of anarchy (in the poli-sci sense). The system has worked fairly well. Granted, there will always be those who are unahppy with the type of morality being legislated. In our system, it is their repsonisbility to build a national concensus to affect that change. Prohibition is an excellent example. Prohibition was not a mad experiment of the 1920's. Rather the Volstead Act et al. were the culmination of nearly a century of struggle by the temperance movement to build a national concensus. Remember, Prohibition was roundly supported by the people in municipal, state and national elections. By the early 1930's - much due to the Great Depression - the American people shifted and wanted consumption of alchohol legalized. Consumption of alchohol had lsot much of the tinge of immorality that the Temperance movement had effectively placed upon it. (on a side note, changes in immigration also helped with the repeal of Prohibition.)
BSD

I'd be inclined to argue that point - you can't legislate morality or moral behaviour, but you can pass legislation punishing behaviour considered by the masses to be "immoral." If everyone behaved morally, we'd not need laws (and if everyone followed the same moral code, we wouldn't have discussions on "Moral Relativism" - which always makes for such lively debates...)

Besides, I wasn't asking for an alternative to the current system, but I was interested in your take on an alternative to the drug campaign we're waging now. I'd like to know what you propose to fix the system - since it seems (to me) we're agreed that it isn't working. Just trying to find a middle ground that's bound to be more successful than what we're doing now...

5-90

 

[Wil Badger]

. IIRC my history it wasn't untill the mid 50's that social concerns over the use of the leaves by youths caused the Government to make it illegal.

sorry but as much as cannibus and hemp are the same plant they are different in one way hemp doesn't have enough THC to get you high so you are wrong there

 

[YELLAHEEP]

Did you check out the references in those articles? They are medical and clinical studies. All the medical studies on alcohol state the bad effects with the exception of a few, for instance the positive effect of a glass of red wine. The long term use of alcohol does many things to the body liver, kidneys and it has been proven that alcohol kills brain cells. And what about alcohol poisening and birth defects. Im not trying to change your mind on this subject. I am mearly trying to get a point accross as are you. Do you think norml has all that money to cunduct all these studies?

Of course I checked the references, and of course I do not think NORML has that kind of funding - but where else are pot smokers gonna get their information? I have no problem seeing the benefits of the medical use of cannabinoids. As with any drug related substance, it should be controlled and prescribed.

Here's a fun fact: State and Federal Statutes have organized chemical substances into Schedules based upon 3 initial concerns. 1) Does the substance have a hight potential for abuse. 2) Does the substance have a currently accepted medical use for treatment in the U.S. 3) Is the substance safe under medical supervision. Schedule I drugs are those with no medicinal purpose or benefit, high potential for abuse and not safe under medical supervision. Schedule II are those with medical uses under supervision and restrictions, but are still subject to abuse or addiction. Schedule III are those that also have medical benefit, and are less addictive or abused than those found in Schedules I and II

Cocaine is a Schedule II drug - so should it be legalized because it has medical benefit right? Amphetamines and Methamphetamines are also Schedule II drugs, so legalize those too right? LSD and Anabolic Steroids are Schedule III drugs, so why not legalize those too?

Here's the fun part: Those "harmeless" natural drugs that couldn't hurt anyone such as Heroin, Psilocybin (mushrooms) and THC Tetrahydrocannabinol (found in Marijuana) are Schedule 1 substances. So, by all means, let's let those be legalized....... Yikes.

And surely you don't think they taught lab rats to smoke a joint for those studies do ya? I'd imagine that not none of those medical studies concludes it's research with the statement "Go ahead and fire up that doobie, it's perfectly healthy." From what I understand, the tar from smoked Marijuana is many times concentrated over the tar that results from tobacco, and a pot smoker still ends up with the same associated inhaled poisons that tobacco smokers get. The THC for those medical studies certainly was obtained thru processing the canabis and was administered by adding it by injection or to food. Those studies weren't done to help legalize Marijuana, just a part of a medical study to see what the compounds found in Marijuana could be used for medicinal purposes. It's the pot heads that try to use those studies to their benefit.

 

[woody]

The sentiment towards "legalize, but TAX" is peculiar.

In a town near you, folks were once tarred & feathered for thoughts like that. Or put in the stocks.

What's next? Taxing non-PC speech? A sliding scale of fines depending on the infraction? Calling one a doo-doo head is $5, but call em a #$%^&* ( ZX##1 @!#$%&& and it's $1500 and a week in 'the camp'? How about a $25 fine for violating the I before E except after C rule? Or you humans that think entering your name & address in all small letters is OK, just because it's 'on the internet'... There ought to be a dorm at the camp for those, for sure.

If I had to pick one or two, they'd "legalize & tax" bumping out scooter riders (they ought to pay a bounty) and driving up the median or ditch in 4WD when the traffic sucks (buy a special sticker for that :dunno: )

 

[BSD]

Besides, I wasn't asking for an alternative to the current system, but I was interested in your take on an alternative to the drug campaign we're waging now. I'd like to know what you propose to fix the system - since it seems (to me) we're agreed that it isn't working. Just trying to find a middle ground that's bound to be more successful than what we're doing now...

5-90

My bad, I misunderstood what "alternative" you were referring to. Actually, I think we would be in greater agreement on needing some alternative. I think the crux of the problem lies in an approach to the problem that is incongruant with the nature of our society. Namely we are a culture of consumption which marches to the beat of capitalism. We chant the mantra of supply meeting demand. Something I generally agree with. However, in the war on drugs administration after administration focuses upon stopping the supply not the demand. That is ass backwards and futile. As long as there is a demand, suppliers will emerge. Perhaps a good example is the fate of acid. While still around, it is no longer seen as a significant problem. Did the government succesfully deal with its manufacture? No. What happened was a drop in demand. Of course, one could argue that the demand went elsewhere.
That said, my approach would be three-fold. First, I would still target the drug trade because of my sense that it is a very destructive product; a lot of family history. However, I would not waste money on out of country intervention and more on shipment and distribution networks in country. This approach would entail far less cost than we currently occur in Colombia alone. Second, I would funnel some of that money saved into a creating some sort of soft sell yet effective cultural campaign that would focus on creating a culture of marginalization when it came to drug use. No, not Barbara Bush's cheesy "just say no" campaign. SOmethign much more effective. Anyone who does not think this is possible need only look at the effectiveness of wartime propoganda or the effectiveness of the Office of Information abroad during the Cold War. Third, I would focus some of the money and attention on the underlying issues of class that help encourage drug use. Granted, I think this idea most on this board would be effective. However, it is beyond dispute that drug use and class are intimately intertwined.
So, that's my alternative. I brace myself for your response! :compwork:

 

[5-90]

Intersting. The most useful point you made there is that "drug use and class are intimately intertwined." Kinda makes me think there might be an economic solution, rather than one of enforcement.

Eliminating classes would be a little more difficult, but probably more productive in the long run. Start by eliminating the minimum wage - everytime that goes up, all that happens is that the various levels of government are able to collect more taxes, and it drives the costs of production up. The people that are supposed to benefit from this are ultimately the losers.

I suppose that reducing the staffing of government would help (since that's the big drain on the coffers) would help - because we'd then be able to lower taxes, and the dollar would be effectively revalued and worth more. This would be a greater economic boost than "tax cuts" - because tax cuts are usually temporary, and a permanent reduction in the tax bite is just that - permanent.

Just a thought - I haven't been thinking about this in-depth, since I've been working on designs all day, but it's another possible...

5-90

 

[the_chief]

i voted yes, and do not smoke. brb, my twelver's dead.

 

[the_chief]

i didn't read all of the posts. but gather some figures on street values of confiscated weed, and consider that as lost revenue for the government. we could start more wars and have bigger guns!

 

[Bent]

There would still be a punishment for people with over an ounce of marijuana in possesion not matter what age.

Please explain why.
I am writing a persuasive speech about this topic and would like to see different sides of it.

Anything under a quarter elbow is just a waste of money. Besides that, if you grew your own, you could never let the plant(s) get mature enough for decent buds. What would be the point in that? That would suck, I don't care who you are.

*** When is the last time you heard of some guy coming home
and beating the wife and kids after a "few too many" loads? You won't either, the guy is going to be pulling three to four G's in the recliner.

*** If you drop your bag in a public area, unlike a beer bottle, there won't be any broken glass to step on. I know, it's a stretch.

***Pot is referred to as a "gateway drug", those who smoke it will inevitably turn to harder drugs. Damned straight; that is as long as you have to go to the Dope Man's pad to get your shit. You see, you got to hang around for a while; don't want to be drawing attention to the traffic. While you are there, somebody always seems to break out with something or another and before too long your appetite expands. By expanding the availability you are also reducing the potential for moving on to harder drugs.

***Crime reduction. Trafficking and distribution methods operate outside of the law. Beyond being illegal by the very nature of the product; the "corporate structure" tends to resolve any disputes with another felony. The market value for pot would drop in a heart beat. Not so much that now this money would not be leaving the country as what the dollars are supporting where they end up. Without cash flow, any organization is going to feel the pinch.

*** Taxes, lots and lots of taxes. When all the cigarette smokers finally quit, two thirds of the states are going to go belly up. In addition, pot smokers will generally not have any problems with restrictions to smoking in public; very similar to drinking.



IMHO, alcohol is a far greater danger to society than is weed. Kind of makes you wonder how much money that industry is spending to keep pot illegal. I just can't see them indifferent to the efforts to legalize some serious competition.
The truth of the matter is, pot is a better buzz than any drink is ever going to be. :greensmok

 

[RichP]

IMHO, alcohol is a far greater danger to society than is weed. Kind of makes you wonder how much money that industry is spending to keep pot illegal. I just can't see them indifferent to the efforts to legalize some serious competition.
The truth of the matter is, pot is a better buzz than any drink is ever going to be. :greensmok

Don't agree there, pot will never go with pizza other than as a seasoning, now beer and pizza, thats a different story...and not everyone drinks just to get a buzz...

 

[learjets]

Sorry, but it would be a bad idea to legalize pot. We as a goverment cannot control the legal use of alcohol now, such as DWI and underage drinking.

To parallel legalization of pot now with the proabition in the 20's is hardly worth discussing, we have advanced very far since then. What percentage of homes in the US had indoor electricy? We could recoup the cost of enforcing alcohol or drug laws currently on the books, if they were inforced, ie. seizure of property.....

I grew up in central Floridia during the 60-70's and had too many people that I knew screw up their lives with drugs.

 

[8Mud]

Just to throw something strange into the discussion. My younger brother was a dope smoking nut. I mean I rarley saw him without a joint in his mouth. Didn't seem to phase him a bit, he was a really bright bussy guy.
He died of Luekemia a few years back at 50. The toxology said somethig was screwy but they didn't know exactly what. It seemed to be some kind of chemical that triggered the Luekemia. He worked in construction, was a rock hound and smoked a lot of dope.
Personnaly I think it might have been an unapproved pesticide that triggered the Luekemia. Just a hunch, no real proof.
There is recipe for a homemade plant lice pesticide in my Readers Digest Gardening book. Dishwashing soap, water and a dash of Benzine. Benzine is one known cause of Leukemia.
When people say weed is harmless, it's possible they are thinking way to shallow.

 

[Tom in KY]

I saw my friends in high school get slowly drawn into the lifestyle that many of the proponents of legalized pot live. The more they desired the herb, the stronger the argument that it should be legalized. Meanwhile their grades slipped. They became less active in sports and lost their competitive edge when they had been warriors. They were all good kids, but some of them couldn't get jobs when they graduated because of drug testing. Some of them found themselves stealing to support their habits. Cocaine was a straight line snort thing then. Noone around here smoked cocaine then. The guys who did get jobs and seemed to be doing well all tried cocaine, and pills.

My Father had a construction company. We had guys who were sharp. They could figure out anything. But, once they caught their bills up, they'd go get a weekend's worth of weed and they'd lose their ability to think on the job. Dad would give them a week before he would give them a warning. Then he would give them a month to straighten out before he would fire them. I don't remember any of the guys ever coming back.

I've seen it affect a person in the long term. I've also seen a person get clean. But when a person goes back to it, they are twice as mental as before. They will get more defensive and more determined every time. I know of one child that has a mental problem due to the heavy drug use of his mother. She claims that alcohol and pot were the only thing she used. That's all anyone has been able to prove that she did. This kid was stealing from Wal-Mart when he was 15. Steal from Wal-Mart and you will get caught. There are security cameras everywhere. He lost his license for a year for getting caught DUI, with a bag under the seat and one in his pocket. They didn't charge him with intent to sell because they know his family and he was a minor, probably taking a supply home to his family. He's washing dishes now, he's 19. He says he's going to get a GED.

My question is, do people who smoke pot suffer from the mental effects of the drug or do they suffer from the effects of the obsession?

I can't vote to legalize it because I've never seen anything productive come from it. I have seen plenty of evidence of negative effects.

 

[Ben H]

Just to throw something strange into the discussion. My younger brother was a dope smoking nut. I mean I rarley saw him without a joint in his mouth. Didn't seem to phase him a bit, he was a really bright bussy guy.
He died of Luekemia a few years back at 50. The toxology said somethig was screwy but they didn't know exactly what. It seemed to be some kind of chemical that triggered the Luekemia. He worked in construction, was a rock hound and smoked a lot of dope.
Personnaly I think it might have been an unapproved pesticide that triggered the Luekemia. Just a hunch, no real proof.
There is recipe for a homemade plant lice pesticide in my Readers Digest Gardening book. Dishwashing soap, water and a dash of Benzine. Benzine is one known cause of Leukemia.
When people say weed is harmless, it's possible they are thinking way to shallow.

What a great point! Neve thougth of pesticides as a potential hazard with pot. Sorry about your brother.

 

[8Mud]

What a great point! Neve thougth of pesticides as a potential hazard with pot. Sorry about your brother.

I'm sorry also, I tried to get him straightened out in his twenties, but his will was stronger than mine, he always was some brighter than me (but maybe not as wise). Guy was really smart most ways, had a crew of twenty working for him for awhile. Seemed to find a way to rip me off everytime I got anywhere near him. Three guesses where most of his disposable cash went.
He did half a year in jail for running his pickup into the side of a school bus once, with an ounce or so of Marajauna stuffed under the seat. Smoking dope never seeemed to affect him much, maybe he was just a good actor.
I do believe it got him in the end though.
He used to get a permit to dredge a stream (built his own dredges) for gold and used the exhaust water for irrigation. Dug pits on the south side of various slopes and covered them with dirt colored plastic. He'd go up in the hills and stay for a couple three months at a stretch. He'd send photographs of himself and his campsites occasionally, sometimes the gold he'd find. Failed to notice the disappearing tractor tracks or the wrinkles in the earth, or the garden hoses running through the underbrush, that showed in the photographs.
No telling what he could have accomplished if he would have put his talent, energy and IQ to something constructive.

 

[Bent]

Don't agree there, pot will never go with pizza other than as a seasoning, now beer and pizza, thats a different story...

You have things out of perspective;

Pot + "the munchies" + cotton mouth = fantastic pizza & beer.

...and not everyone drinks just to get a buzz...

I've heard that before, it always seemed artsie fartsie to me. If you're not out to get loaded, whats the point.

BTW, not everyone that smokes pot inhales.

 

[Bent]

... Never thougth of pesticides as a potential hazard with pot...

Don't forget about paraquat.

 

[8Mud]

Don't forget about paraquat.

Smoking herbasides sure can't be good for you. I'd sure enough bet, most of the tests done with marajauna by the advocacy groups, is with unadulterated stuff. Smoking stuff that is adulterated, but with only trace amounts, is likely accumulative.
Here the dealers sell Hash, that's adulterated with traces of Opium. It's arguable how much the Hash affects a person, but the Opium will sure enough keep you coming back for refills. Not enough Opium to cause serious withdrawel, just enough to induce a craving.
I wonder how many people who smoke dope actually know what they are smoking. I wonder how many care after they are stoned.
I watch the pictures on TV about the erradication of this Opium crop or that Opium crop. You watch them knocking down the plants with sticks and I have to laugh. Opium Poppies are a perrenial, not an annual. Unless you poison them or dig the roots out, they come right on back next year, as strong as ever, often even healthier. One plant can live decades, 20-30 years.
The Poppy crop is probably just as important for the local Police and anti drug forces as the growers and distributors. The Police don't really want it to go away, they just want some occasional press, showing that they are fighting it. Heck if they ever won the war on drugs, they would be out of work.
If you apply the same arguements to crime in general, in Urban areas. You can draw some fairly obvious parrallels. The leadership, doesn't want to erraticate crime, or even suppress it very much. Crime is a cash crop and keeps a lot of people employed. Keeps the leaders (organizers) leading. You reep what you sow.
If you think back to the principles that drove the American revoltion. Remove the specifics and think about the generalities. They were a group of people sick and tired of being manipulated by the English. Or administered and governed by proxy.