Is America christian, yes

[RichP]

This is a rather good 20 or so minutes for those of you who are interested in real history and not the revised pap that started being served in the 60's.
http://www.intouch.org/site/c.cnKBIPNuEoG/b.4943223/k.492B/In_Touch_Ministries__Video_Archives.htm
Go there and select July 2009, video is 'Is America a Christian Nation' all facts, no bs and backed up with real documentation. I found it pretty interesting. I'm also reading Washingtons farewell address, even more interesting.
It's has the typical preamble from the ministries but thats OK once you get thru that so just suck it up

 

[Rod Knee]

Yes, 80 to 90 percent of the population is Christian as they themselves often point out. That makes the nation de facto Christian, if not officially. Its just a pity that the 10 to 20 per cent minority (which includes me) is persecuting the majority so badly.

 

[winkosmosis]

America is not a Christian nation. Period. We are a free secular Western nation. Our laws are based on reason, not religion. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

If Thomas Jefferson knew that, and stated as such in a treaty, why is it so difficult for people in 2009 to understand?

Love it or leave it. You want a theocracy? I'm sure Iran will happily accept an American defector.

 

[RichP]

America is not a Christian nation. Period. We are a free secular Western nation. Our laws are based on reason, not religion. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

If Thomas Jefferson knew that, and stated as such in a treaty, why is it so difficult for people in 2009 to understand?

Love it or leave it. You want a theocracy? I'm sure Iran will happily accept an American defector.

On the contrary, did you spend 20 min watching the link I posted or just like most liberals ignore facts.
I am 'assuming' you know that 27 writers of the 57 of the US Constitution were ministers right ?
Oh, by the way what treaty are you talking about ?

 

[Darky]

I believe he is speaking of the treaty with Tripoli...a Muslim kingdom whyo was causing great problems to our shipping thanks to their Muslim terrorist pirates.

America may not have an official religion, but the religion that was followed by the majority of the founders and by many today is Christianity. Our founders believed our rights to be derived from God; ie God-given rights.

 

[RichP]

I believe he is speaking of the treaty with Tripoli...a Muslim kingdom whyo was causing great problems to our shipping thanks to their Muslim terrorist pirates.

America may not have an official religion, but the religion that was followed by the majority of the founders and by many today is Christianity. Our founders believed our rights to be derived from God; ie God-given rights.

Oh THAT treaty, lasted long enough for the marines to go in and clean house.

 

[XJEEPER]

America is not a Christian nation. Period. We are a free secular Western nation. Our laws are based on reason, not religion. Read the Constitution if you don't believe me.

If Thomas Jefferson knew that, and stated as such in a treaty, why is it so difficult for people in 2009 to understand?

Love it or leave it. You want a theocracy? I'm sure Iran will happily accept an American defector.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

The treaty of Tripoli remained on the books for eight years, at which time the treaty was renegotiated, and Article 11 was dropped.

I see where you are attempting to go with this arguement......nice try, but it lacks substance.

The verbage in Article 11 of this treaty was to clearly show a seperation of Church and State, that the USA was not to be compared to the Crusaders of previous centuries.

He're a great easy read that will shed some light on this subject and help you gain some insight......

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17238634/Americas-200-YearOld-War-with-Islamic-Terrorism

BTW, the Treaty of Tripoli was a huge mistake and cost the USA dearly but taught a priceless lesson.......... DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS....PERIOD.

 

[Darky]

And the beauty of this nation and the Constitution is that while it may have been Christian inspired, written with Christian ideals, it never veers off to promote any particular religion as right nor does it restrict your ability to believe or not believe whatever you want. Which btw is a tenet of the Christian faith; we do not force anyone into our religion, we won't kill you if you disagree.

 

[Rod Knee]

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

The treaty of Tripoli remained on the books for eight years, at which time the treaty was renegotiated, and Article 11 was dropped.

I see where you are attempting to go with this arguement......nice try, but it lacks substance.

The verbage in Article 11 of this treaty was to clearly show a seperation of Church and State, that the USA was not to be compared to the Crusaders of previous centuries.

He're a great easy read that will shed some light on this subject and help you gain some insight......

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17238634/Americas-200-YearOld-War-with-Islamic-Terrorism

BTW, the Treaty of Tripoli was a huge mistake and cost the USA dearly but taught a priceless lesson.......... DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS....PERIOD.

Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli reads:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The treaty was ratified by Congess, and I agree, as you say, that it declared a seperation of church and state. But why was article 11 dropped a few years after it was written? It may have been to back away from the statement that the US was not founded on Christianity, or it may have been dropped because the verbiage about not engaging in warfare and existing in harmony was no longer applicable. When we consider that the treaty was ratified by the US in 1797, broken by Tripoli in 1801 resulting in the first Barbari War, and renogotiated in 1805, there is but one conclusion and that is that it was renegotiated because a state of war had rendered references such as "the harmony existing between the two countries" irrelevant, not because its authors and those who ratified it had changed their minds about the secularity of the republic. I also agree that the treaty was a mistake, but not because of any reference to the secular nature of the government. Its fallacy was in appeasement which had nothing to do with the declaration of secularity.

 

[Rod Knee]

And the beauty of this nation and the Constitution is that while it may have been Christian inspired, written with Christian ideals, it never veers off to promote any particular religion as right nor does it restrict your ability to believe or not believe whatever you want. Which btw is a tenet of the Christian faith; we do not force anyone into our religion, we won't kill you if you disagree.

In broad terms, what you say is more or less correct. However we still have a sizable part of the population that tends to endorse coerced school prayer. I don't think that imposing religion on someone else's kids is what the founding fathers had in mind, especially considering there is no mention of a nationally endorsed religion in the Constitution, the foundation for law in this country. Meanwhile, any student is free to pray unobtrusively in the middle of a math test, which is as it should be. I somehow don't think the founding father's would have thought I needed to recite an affirmation of someone else's religion to be patriotic either, such as in "one nation under God", thank you very much.

 

[RichP]

In broad terms, what you say is more or less correct. However we still have a sizable part of the population that tends to endorse coerced school prayer. I don't think that imposing religion on someone else's kids is what the founding fathers had in mind, especially considering there is no mention of a nationally endorsed religion in the Constitution, the foundation for law in this country. Meanwhile, any student is free to pray unobtrusively in the middle of a math test, which is as it should be. I somehow don't think the founding father's would have thought I needed to recite an affirmation of someone else's religion to be patriotic either, such as in "one nation under God", thank you very much.

Ya all know that the supreme court and congress start every session with a prayer right ?

 

[Rod Knee]

Are all Congressmen and women required to participate? Just asking because I've never really looked into it.

Look, I actually don't deny that the US is at least unofficially Christian, or maybe even semi-officially so, given about 85% of the population considers themselves Christian, at least in name. An 85% majority tends to get its way. Any contention that the founding fathers set up an offiicial religion is tenuous at best, however.

Meanwhile a significant portion of the 85% majority continues to feel persecuted by us agnostics and atheists. Must stem from a lack of Faith. Ironic, huh?

 

[RichP]

Are all Congressmen and women required to participate? Just asking because I've never really looked into it.

Look, I actually don't deny that the US is at least unofficially Christian, or maybe even semi-officially so, given about 85% of the population considers themselves Christian, at least in name. An 85% majority tends to get its way. Any contention that the founding fathers set up an offiicial religion is tenuous at best, however.

Meanwhile a significant portion of the 85% majority continues to feel persecuted by us agnostics and atheists. Must stem from a lack of Faith. Ironic, huh?

Not really, just the other 5% of the 15% that waste resources fighting it, taking it to court, generally pissing people off, supporting lawyers that really need to be productive in society which most are not, fighting Christmas tree decorations in public places instead of getting a life.

 

[CherBear]

RichP,

I will agree with you that the US is primarily Christian. Yes lots of unwritten "Traditions" are faith based. Think of "In God We Trust" on our dollar bills, our "Ten Commandments" on courthouse lawns. These are all very Christian based.

This Does NOT mean that we are a theocracy. Think of middle Eastern nations, they are theocracies. Many of their laws are based on their interpretation of the Qur'an. Think of laws about women's rights and religious holiday observances.

The difference between the US and a Theocracy is that the majority of Americans are Christian, so Christian values and ideas tend to enter government by convenience rather than by legislation. (Which I don't Always agree with)

 

[Rod Knee]

Fighting imposed religion such as coerced prayer is not a waste of resources. It is a noble and essential undertaking. Alot of Iranians agree.

 

[CherBear]

Fighting imposed religion such as coerced prayer is not a waste of resources. It is a noble and essential undertaking. Alot of Iranians agree.

x2

 

[TJ Rat]

This country was not founded as a Christian nation. The original settelers came here on the Mayflower to escape religious persecution. A lot of the founding fathers were Diests. That group believed in a higher authority but not necessarily God.

But all the other religions...and the athiests trying to cram stuff down our throats nowdays is bordering on ridiculous. Go to an elememtary school around Christmas (that in itself is a bad term these days). The halls will be covered with boxing day, hannukah, kwizana, etc., but don't dare try to put something Christian up as that is against Federal law.

I am a Christian and do feel this country is still the majority Christian, but the truth is the truth. I found the Diesm thing hard to swallow at first, but that does not hinder my beliefs or my prayers.


as posted by XJJeeper
BTW, the Treaty of Tripoli was a huge mistake and cost the USA dearly but taught a priceless lesson.......... DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS....PERIOD.

This needs to be explained to Obama and his cabinet. They must have been asleep during their history lectures in school.

 

[RichP]

This country was not founded as a Christian nation. The original settelers came here on the Mayflower to escape religious persecution. A lot of the founding fathers were Diests. That group believed in a higher authority but not necessarily God.

But all the other religions...and the athiests trying to cram stuff down our throats nowdays is bordering on ridiculous. Go to an elememtary school around Christmas (that in itself is a bad term these days). The halls will be covered with boxing day, hannukah, kwizana, etc., but don't dare try to put something Christian up as that is against Federal law.

I am a Christian and do feel this country is still the majority Christian, but the truth is the truth. I found the Diesm thing hard to swallow at first, but that does not hinder my beliefs or my prayers.


as posted by XJJeeper
BTW, the Treaty of Tripoli was a huge mistake and cost the USA dearly but taught a priceless lesson.......... DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS....PERIOD.

This needs to be explained to Obama and his cabinet. They must have been asleep during their history lectures in school.

Wow, who wrote the version of history you read or were you talking about the vikings who came here before the puritans.
As far as the 'founding fathers' 27 or 29 of the 57 signers of the declartion and bill or rights had secular degrees and were ministers.
Our government never pushed a religion, they just let all them who wanted to come and practice whatever they wanted to do so. Figured that christian bibles and such would sell themselves and it worked, the second two oldest religions jewish and muslim, there were mosques from boston to charleston. in the 1700's. Kind of died out though. Moste muslims became Christians.

 

[TJ Rat]

Wow, who wrote the version of history you read or were you talking about the vikings who came here before the puritans.
As far as the 'founding fathers' 27 or 29 of the 57 signers of the declartion and bill or rights had secular degrees and were ministers.
Our government never pushed a religion, they just let all them who wanted to come and practice whatever they wanted to do so. Figured that christian bibles and such would sell themselves and it worked, the second two oldest religions jewish and muslim, there were mosques from boston to charleston. in the 1700's. Kind of died out though. Moste muslims became Christians.

I too wonder what version you are looking at. Why would Christians in a predominantly Christian country add this to the Constitution, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3).

Major founding fathers who were Deists. There are more, but this is off the top of my head:
George Washington
Benjamin Franklin
James Madison
Thomas Paine

A great influence on the Constitution was John Locke. He too was a Deist.

Consider this: if indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing, "God-fearing" men, would there ever have been a revolution at all? "For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23
I am not bashing Christianity, but the truth is the truth.

Oh yeah, I was not asleep during my history classes at the University of Houston. Once again, look up the reason why the pilgrims were on the Mayflower.

 

[RichP]

I too wonder what version you are looking at. Why would Christians in a predominantly Christian country add this to the Constitution, "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3).

Major founding fathers who were Deists. There are more, but this is off the top of my head:
George Washington
Benjamin Franklin
James Madison
Thomas Paine

A great influence on the Constitution was John Locke. He too was a Deist.

Consider this: if indeed the members of the First Continental Congress were all bible-believing, "God-fearing" men, would there ever have been a revolution at all? "For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23
I am not bashing Christianity, but the truth is the truth.

Oh yeah, I was not asleep during my history classes at the University of Houston. Once again, look up the reason why the pilgrims were on the Mayflower.

You think Washington was a diest, LOL, read his farewell address some day.
Madison
First, Madison was publicly outspoken about his personal Christian beliefs and convictions. For example, he encouraged his friend, William Bradford (who served as Attorney General under President Washington), to make sure of his own spiritual salvation:

[A] watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.[1]

Madison even desired that all public officials - including Bradford - would declare openly and publicly their Christian beliefs and testimony:

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. [2]

Second, Madison was a member of the committee that authored the 1776 Virginia Bill of Rights and approved of its clause declaring that:

It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other. [3] (emphasis added)

Third, Madison's proposed wording for the First Amendment demonstrates that he opposed only the establishment of a federal denomination, not public religious activities. His proposal declared:

The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established. [4] (emphasis added)

gotta wonder what books you have read and if those books have sources in the back, seeing alot of the newer college and HS texts that lack the footnotes and sources the last 10 years or so.

All this stuff is available in the library of congress not written by so called experts who have their own goals and aspirations.