Irresponsible offroading ...

[montanaman]

At the risk of getting flamed ... I thought I'd post something about the irresponsible offroading I've seen -- in person out in the woods, and in pics on this site.

Let me start off by saying I'm NOT some looney, dreadlocked, tree-hugger. I have a wife and a baby girl. I love jeeps and exploring the mountains, but I also love camping, backpacking, rock climbing, fishing, hunting, horses, creek swimming, etc. I'm registered politically as an independent, because I'm not really satisified with either of the two political parties. I vote every 2 years. I saw the documentary "Gizzly Man" and that little fag made me want to puke. My father was a career officer in the US Army (Airborne Ranger and Delta school instructor).

I moved to western Montana because the Northern Rockies are the closest thing I've ever found to heaven on earth. Out here, land use issues are always simmering. The Forest Service puts winter restrictions on some areas to avoid stressing the elk, deer, etc., during a time of the year when they are fighting for their life. There are also regulations about driving in creekbeds, and other things like that.

I routinely see offroaders doing these things that they shouldn't do ... choking creeks with mud, turning wetlands into mud pits, and just basically fukking up the habitat for anybody other than offroaders. I've had guys come flying past me on my horse, and their vehicle sounds like it has no muffler whatsoever. Spooks the shit out of the horse and basically interupts my good time.

I think that's wrong -- and selfish to boot. Choking 200 yards of stream water, or ruining part of a streambed isn't worth the short-term fun. Running the game ragged (even tho it's unintentional) is bad for hunters -- both human and non-human.

Does anybody else feel this way? Anybody seen these types of things happening? Does anybody else here make an effort to reduce their impact on special areas? I view the Jeep more as a vehicle to get me to the beautiful places in the world ... not just a toy to play in. It's fun to take a difficult route and push your vehicle to see what it can do, but it's also fun to sit and enjoy the sounds of the forest in the quiet times.

I'm not trying to preach or point fingers at anyone ... I just wanted to open up this subject to see what others think about it.

 

[IndyXJ]

Nothing wrong at all with what you are saying. To add to that, whoever is DRINKING on the trail is a pure dumbass, plain and simple. Seen that at one particular place near me that I'll keep nameless for now.
There is a post or email floating around encouraging boards to remove obviously bad wheeling practices, ie..sitting in water like a lake, certain stream crossings,etc. '
Keep the faith and just keep educating people.

 

[Tom in KY]

Certain manufacturers have been guilty of these practices also. I saw an ad for (of all things) a Jeep Commander, where the Jeep was completely under the water. It drove up on the beach and all I could imagine was outraged environmentalists screaming at a Sierra Club meeting. Jeep should have known better than to put such an outlandish concept on TV for advertising to begin with. While most people know that underwater travel is only possible with submarines, there will be those who think that a picture of their Jeep sitting in water up to the tops of their fenderwells is cool. When I'm not Jeeping, I'm probably fishing, in my free time. I have seen a couple of farm ponds ruined by guys who didn't even think about the impact that they would have. Tire tracks and dead fish floating all over the place is a dead giveaway. When I was 18, there was open land everywhere around Western Kentucky. Now, what land is still designated public use, is regulated tightly and vehicles are not allowed on any unpaved road or parking area. You WILL get a ticket for parking off of the road on a WMA. Then Toyota shows a guy running a truck sideways across a road at full throttle, trail-blazing, sheesh! Guys, the manufacturers do not care about land closures. Most of the new vehicles sold now will never see off road driving with the original purchaser. Who can afford to drive a $35,000.00 vehicle in an at-risk situation anyway? AND DRINKING?! Yep, we need to project a more responsible image. By BEING more responsible.

Tom in KY, Trying to tread "lighter" than ever.
Somebody else, PLEASE take this soap-box preaching to your friends now.

 

[Grifter144]

hey guys, thanks for this post, unfortuntly i am one of those offroaders who kinda has his hands in everything. I actively mtn bike, hike and camp as well as play with my jeep. currently in michigan, the hikers and mtn bikers are at "war" cuz the unresponsible mtn bikers "destroy the trail", so we have sections for mtn bike use and seperately for hiking use. then the equastrians have there beef with every one, the bikers spook the horses etc etc so they get their sections of trail...and it goes on, us 4 wheelers are at the top of everyones list to include the sierra club. we are hated. anyway for a long time i despised the people who spoke ill of us 4 wheelers/jeepers what have you. until my girl and i went for an extended hike /wilderness camping loop. half way thru the quiet afternoon hike i hear a obvious 4x4 vehicle motoring along, it was obvious where he was and that he was using the go pedal..excessively. it became apparent that we would not be seeing any more wildlife for some time so we packd up the camera and proceeded on. as it turned out our hiking trail crossed the section of land he/or she had used to play in there jeep. it was lil more than a small parking area designed for hikers to park to access the trail...in his or her play they had knocked down a number of small trees, (donuts)swept around some of the larger trees and generally tore the hell outta the area, once we crossed this lot and re found the hiking trial i noticed that he had tried to drive up the hiking trail, thankfully he only made it about 50 meters before he ran headlong into two solid old oaks which the hiking trail passed thru...thankfully there was no way for him to negotiate his way around so he backed out and apprehently left...for once i bacame ery andry at a 4 wheeler for his lack of regad for the landscape/ wildlife and just our genera enjoyment of nature..

.it sucks to be in this position i would like to think that from that experience i wll be better 4x4er and i will promote a healthy outlook on our sport and enjoyment of the outdoors..please be careful, use the land wisely and do not distrurb that which is not necessary, to enjoy your day offroading...

sorry these are my ramblings...

montanaman i envy you....wish i lived in western montana, actually its my dream...you by chance got a line on a job out there for me..hehehe

RLTW,
Grifter

 

[montanaman]

Wow ... I'm surprised at the responses. I thought I'd be getting all kinds of "Fukk you" answers.

Grifter ... it's possible to move to Montana, but just be aware that the job market here sux so bad it's amazing. When I first got here, I basically had to beg for a job washing dishes ... and I have a decent education and plenty of skills. There are PhDs out here digging ditches for $6 an hour ... and happy to have that work. It just takes time to get settled and work your way up the food chain.

 

[Grifter144]

Montana Man: yeah we are working the aspect of some seasonal govt work out that way this summer in the national parks...if it works out it should be a blast...on that note the job market sucks everywhere about now...detroit area especially. hows the cost of living over there though here its so bloody high i cant hardly afford to go to school, i need to work so much.....on a seperate note..when did your old man serve in the Army? What unit? time frame?

shoot me a pm....

RLTW,
Grifter

Back on topic....
are we good stewards of our sport?

 

[montanaman]

Avg. cost of a house here in MT is about 250k, which apparently isn't too bad compared to the national avg. People are swarming out here, buying up land, and competing for jobs. That pushes the price of land up, and the price of labor down.

About my father, he's retired now. He joined in the '50s when he was 17 years old. Became a corporal, then went to OCS and became an officer. Worked his way up through the ranks. We lived all over, including Fort Campbell, KY (twice) with the 101st Airborne. That's where I first spent a lot of time hunting and fishing. He also did 2 tours with the 101st in Viet Nam. I think the "Ashau Valley" or something like that. First as a Major commanding an infantry battalian, then as a Lt. Colonel as division C3. He refers to his second tour as being an REMF -- Rear Echelon Mother Fukker. He personally slowed down some NVA lead during his first tour.

He went thru jump school and Ranger school before I was born, then went back to Florida when I was a tiny kid to teach the swamp phase of Ranger training. In the early 80s he did some Delta training coordination, which I know nothing about, since he wouldn't discuss it.

Mostly, he was in and out of the Pentagon ... coupla years of desk duty, followed by a command or field-type assignment, followed by some more desk stuff. We were also in Schweinfurt, Germany with the 8th Mechanized Infantry Division, and then in Mons, Belgium with NATO.

His last tour was in Japan with the 9th Army corps.

I don't know a whole lot about it. I was pretty young during all of it, and the stuff above isn't in chronological order. He retired when I was 17. And I was WAY too hard-headed to ever sign up.

He's led a pretty amazing life ... born poor as dirt on a Georgia farm, then joined the Army and his career followed the cold war up through the mid-80s when he retired -- Just as the cold war was winding down. Then he started an East-West trade relations company just as international trade was starting to skyrocket. He now helps US corporations gain access to markets in Eastern Europe, Russia, China, and Japan. I've often thought his life would make a great book or something. His life and career really mirrored the major historical trends of the late 20th century.

Me ... I was a ski-rock-fishing bum for about 30 years. Now I'm finally back in school getting serious about life. My wife and I have our first daughter, which changes everything for the better.

 

[WB9YZU]

Back on topic....
are we good stewards of our sport?

Darn good question, and one I continously bring up on the Wisconsin Off-Highway Vehicle Association Site.

There are some of us who are at core, environmentalists. Yah, there are the folks who give us a bad name, but there those folks in every group.

I have indeed, walked up to another wheeler and politely asked why there were where they shouldn't be. Most of the time, it's because they didn't know.

The folks who cheese me off are the ones that DO know better, yet do it anyway. This extends beyond the trail IMO. Those building trucks clearly outside of their States DOT laws fall into that catagory also. There are some folks for whom the term "Civil Disobedience" is a way of life; in otherwords, they don't give a rat's arse.

,Ron

 

[DrMoab]

Wow ... I'm surprised at the responses. I thought I'd be getting all kinds of "Fukk you" answers.

You haven't been around here too long I see. is one group who is mostly a group of very responsible wheelers.

I have actually spent my share of posts doing the opposite. I have publicly called out several people on here who have posted about wheeling where they shouldn't have or doing other irresponsible things.

BTW. Where in Western Montana are you? I lived in Missoula for a couple of years and my sister is in Bozeman.

 

[Jes]

At the risk of getting flamed ... I thought I'd post something about the irresponsible offroading I've seen -- in person out in the woods, and in pics on this site.

So where are these pics you speek of on this site?

 

[Danno]

I sure haven't seen any irresponsible members on any of the trips I've been on or help organize. You won't see any pix on this site showing folks doing it either unless it's already a marked trail (ie, Kane Creek in Moab). This is one club that doesn't condone bad manners as related to the environment.
However, polluting their systems with the "demon rum" around the campfire AFTER a day of wheeling.......well, some do! Some don't. :laugh3:

 

[montanaman]

DrMoab: I'm in Missoula ... love it here.

Jes: The pics aren't specifically posted on this site, I've seen a few links to movies and pics showing people driving up creek beds.

Everybody: DrMoab was right ... I haven't been on this forum very long, and I meant no offense to ... it seems like a great organization and I'm thinking of joining.

And sorry for the long post about my father ... that was late at night, and it wasn't until today that I saw that Grifter had said "send me a pm."

 

[the_chief]

fwiw montana man, i also agree with what you've said. and i will admit, ever since i joined the board here a few years ago, it made me start thinking more about responsible wheeling. Whereas others did not. Also keep in mind, no matter what your hobby is, there are always jerks, who don't care. Also remember some people really don't know any better.

ps, i have inlaws in butte, helena, bozeman, great falls, billings, and red lodge.

beautiful places, as long as you're cod to MT. :wave:

 

[DrMoab]

DrMoab: I'm in Missoula ... love it here. "

You actually live in one of the worst areas in the Western United States as far as wheeling areas go. Since that area is almost totally Forest Service. Not to mention all the greenies who go to U of M.

I actually lived in Clinton. Right on the Clark Fork.

Oh and....there is nothing...and I mean NOTHING wrong with driving in Creek beds. The wacko environmentalists would have you believe so but they are just plain wrong.

If the area is closed to driving then people shouldn't be there. If you are saying that because they are in a creek bed they are doing something wrong then you are mis-informed.

 

[5-90]

Yeah - I get tired of goof-offs who decide to "tear it up" - no matter what they're riding (or if they're on foot.)

I still like to get lost in the woods - I take about a week off once a year, and go "subsistence camping" in the Santa Cruz mountains. I carry what I take, travel light, and live off the land for that week - it helps me get my head together to face the rest of the year. Makes me consider violence to people who screw that up - I like to have free range when I'm doing this, and people behaving badly are closing that off to me...

Impact? Footprints, mainly. Boldily functions have to take place, but I'll usually pick a tree that could use a little fertiliser, and dig a "cat-hole" when I have to go. At least that way, it's covered.

5-90

 

[Prepmech]

There aren't very many places around my home town to go wheeling legally. I can't believe how many people go wheeling illegally on Corps of Engineers Wildlife Management Areas. They tear up land designated as hunting and fishing areas by trying to fit their vehicles down foot trails, or cutting through undisturbed areas. If you get caught wheeling there, the conservation officer can and will seize your vehicle.

Grassland waterways that are designed to be a buffer zone between fields and water sources also seem to be an attractive place to wheel.

 

[montanaman]

Oh and....there is nothing...and I mean NOTHING wrong with driving in Creek beds. The wacko environmentalists would have you believe so but they are just plain wrong.

If the area is closed to driving then people shouldn't be there. If you are saying that because they are in a creek bed they are doing something wrong then you are mis-informed.

You *are* kidding, right? In your previous post, you said that promotes only responsible wheeling, and now you're advocating wheeling up through trout habitat.

There are thousands of carefully controlled scientific studies showing how wrong you are in your belief it's harmless. Here is one in very easy-to-understand terms:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/RiparianZoneMgmt-TroutStreams_64164_7.pdf

That isn't written by whacko greenies, it's written by staff scientists with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources Fisheries Division. These are the guys that the greenies are protesting against for not being green enough. And me ... I've already explained very carefully that I'm not a nutso tree-hugger.

If you are familiar with the language of Biology, here is another, more difficult article:
http://biology.dbs.umt.edu/dbs/Lowe Web Site/Lowe Publication PDFs/Lowe et al. 2004 EcoApps.pdf

Do a google search on "effects of sedimentation on trout" and you'll come up with tons of data showing the negative effects of stream sedimentation, and zero data showing no impact or a positive impact.

Those links above were on the first page of results. There are 177,000 more.

All you have to do is look at a fish gill under a microscope and you'll see the effects of sedimentation. Fish breath by allowing the O2 absorbed in the water to diffuse into their blood (which has a lower concentration of O2), by a counter-current exchange mechanism across their lamellae. The lamellae are the tiniest part of the gill. If they are clogged up with silt, the fish can't breath very well ... simple as that. It would be like you trying to breath through a thick mask over your mouth. It takes months for the gills to clean themselves out. This isn't whacko enviros speaking, this is just plain common sense.

I fish, and I've taken many biology classes at U of M. There are some weirdo greenies here, but they're all studying poetry and Women's Studies. The Forestry and Wildlife Management staff are more of the common-sense fishing/hunting types.

Wheeling up creek beds creates immediate and long term sedimentation problems for clear-flowing streams. Immediate effects are from the dirt you kick up at that time. Longer term effects are from disturbing the banks and creek bottom, which creates a longer-term sedimentation loading. If you tear up a creek bank, it will dump tons of sediment every time it rains. This is definitely bad for fish, no matter how many times you holler the word "nothing." You say you lived in Clinton, so I'm sure you know about Rock Creek. It's famous. People come from all over the world to fish that creek. Would you seriously advocate wheeling up Rock Creek? Wanna put the fishing guides out of work? That's one of the very few bearable jobs to be found in Montana.

Yeah ... if only one guy runs up a creek once every few years ... not such a big deal. But we all know that's not how it really works. Who gets to be that guy? The fact is we'd all love to do it ... we'd all love to take what we want and not worry about the consequences. And since their are too many people that want to do it, we have to all agree that we can't do it.

But ... that's just my opinion, and I'd like to hear other peoples opinions too. What do other members think about wheeling up creek beds?

 

[goodburbon]

I think as long as your undercarriage is not covered in oil it's ok.

Sedimentation........whatever. I don't mean to sound crass, but I live in Louisiana, and I fish. 99 times out of 100 trips the local rivers and bays look like chocolate milk. You still catch Speckled trout, bass, crappie, freshwater drum, redfish....I could go on. If sedimantation were really an issue these fish wouldn't be here, especially when there's clear water 100 miles in either direction.

 

[montanaman]

Yeah ... but you got to admit, Louisiana is very different from Montana ... with different species. You put a brook, rainbow, brook, or even a brown trout in chocolate milk water and they'll do poorly ... won't grow, and much less likely to breed.

Other types of fish do just fine in silty water ... carp and bass are good examples.

Also ... even in Louisiana, if you go up to the headwaters of any given river, where the water flows clearly, the fish there are dependent on not having their environment torn up.

 

[5-90]

I wonder what, exactly, is meant by "creek beds."

Do we mean dried-up, no water at all - at any time of year?

Do we mean "seasonal" rivers, which are flooded with runoff in the spring and rains in the fall, but nothing in summer?

Or, do we mean slightly-flowing creeks and rivulets, where there is always water?

In either of the first two cases, I don't see "sedimentation" being an issue when there is no water. There may be some habitat spoilage in the second case, but a dry creekbed is just that - dry. Shouldn't be an issue for water contamination, when water doesn't flow through it.

Just a few other thoughts - sort of playing Devil's advocate...

5-90