Iraq.....Ugh.

[aspera]

We still have the moral high ground. When we find soldiers abusing prisoners, they are punished. Our prisoners aren't tossed into tree shredders.

Did you post this before the "Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal" story broke? Sorry, I've been gone on vacation.

I wish the news shows would just call it what it is...torture. The US approves of torturing certain prisoners. Ok. I just hate it when they call it "aggressive interrogation" or "alleged prisoner abuse". They are just making material for George Carlin.

It seems that the "moral high ground" isn't very high in Iraq. As long as you don't behead a civilian, you're a saint. :wierd:

 

[MountainGoat]

I served several years in the military. And I have to say that when I saw that footage of berg being beheaded.... I felt nothing but rage.... made me want to go back in even though I am to old now. All I could see in my mind when viewing that footage was after 9-11 when the people in the middle east were dancing and partying in the streets. They saw it as a celebration.... includin with the palestinians.... sorry but these days I dont even see why we bother... they verbally denounce this stuff but you know dammed well they are helping out.

 

[Kejtar]

Did you post this before the "Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal" story broke? Sorry, I've been gone on vacation.

I wish the news shows would just call it what it is...torture. The US approves of torturing certain prisoners. Ok. I just hate it when they call it "aggressive interrogation" or "alleged prisoner abuse". They are just making material for George Carlin.

It seems that the "moral high ground" isn't very high in Iraq. As long as you don't behead a civilian, you're a saint. :wierd:

Dude what planet are you living on? Yeah war sucks, especially one where you gotta put up with crap like guerilla tactics that the Iraqis use. Noone is safe there: civilian and news people included! They even kill their own! And you're talking about the prisoner abuse scandal. Yes they got treated rough, but have you really heard of anyone being tortured? Give me an example! I want to hear about someone who got hooked up to an electrical chair and was being supplied with varied charge levels. I want to hear about someone whipped to death. Someone who had all their bones broken in their body!! THIS IS TORTURE! What happened there was a bunch of idiots not knowing what their doing (I don't think they even achieved anything) but it definately wasn't torture in the full meaning of this word.
I think that part of the problem is that people have become complacent in their lives, they got set in their routines and they forgot all the downed airliners, all the people in those 2 towers, people from the Lockerbie (sp?) and so on. Yes it is easy to sit at home and talk about moral high ground while there are people who are getting killed by an brain washed enemy who's only goal is to kill others even at the cost of his/her own life in order to achieve eternal salvation (not to even mention the virgins). Oh and who does the brain washing? the religious fanatics who want POWER.

 

[speedn431]

I have a link to the decapitation of the us civilian if anyone would like to see it. It really helped to put into context the frame of mind that we are up against. It was hard for me to get through, but it helps me remember why we are over there. I don't want to post it, but if you PM me I will send it to you. As a soldier, I would ask you to not just pray for us, but pray for the civilians that are getting caught up in all of this too.

 

[ladywolf]

speedn, i agree. As a soldier still here IN iraq, theres been a lot of talk about the prison "abuse" and the decapitation and everything else. It was the guys own fault, the us military offered to transport him somewhere safe. Decapitation is cruel and unusual, especially the way they did that to that civilian. The US military is here for a reason. while those reasons may not seem the greatest at times, i will back my leaders 100%. I dont want to see another world trade center go down, or a plane getting crashed into the pentagon, or the whitehouse, or anyplace else. I am serving my country proudly, and while I may not always agree with my superiors, i will always back them.

 

[Kejtar]

If you are going to be able to show up to Moab this year beer's on me!! (if not then, then some other time then )

speedn, i agree. As a soldier still here IN iraq, theres been a lot of talk about the prison "abuse" and the decapitation and everything else. It was the guys own fault, the us military offered to transport him somewhere safe. Decapitation is cruel and unusual, especially the way they did that to that civilian. The US military is here for a reason. while those reasons may not seem the greatest at times, i will back my leaders 100%. I dont want to see another world trade center go down, or a plane getting crashed into the pentagon, or the whitehouse, or anyplace else. I am serving my country proudly, and while I may not always agree with my superiors, i will always back them.

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

The way Ladywolf keeps getting beer and food offers, she's gonna fail her next physical....

 

[ladywolf]

Well i'm not a big beer person, but ya never know where I'm gonna pop up. if I get the duty station i want i'll be back in the land of the pac NW, and i'll possibly be able to hit some more jeep runs. at the very least when I take leave, I may end up flyin in and just riding w/ you guys since my 'wheels are in germany!

Kristen

 

[Kejtar]

Well i'm not a big beer person, but ya never know where I'm gonna pop up. if I get the duty station i want i'll be back in the land of the pac NW, and i'll possibly be able to hit some more jeep runs. at the very least when I take leave, I may end up flyin in and just riding w/ you guys since my 'wheels are in germany!

Kristen

Go for it!! You wouldn't be the first to do that: Hagen flies in every year and rents a jeep

 

[aspera]

Dude what planet are you living on? Yeah war sucks, especially one where you gotta put up with crap like guerilla tactics that the Iraqis use. Noone is safe there: civilian and news people included! They even kill their own! And you're talking about the prisoner abuse scandal. Yes they got treated rough, but have you really heard of anyone being tortured? Give me an example! I want to hear about someone who got hooked up to an electrical chair and was being supplied with varied charge levels. I want to hear about someone whipped to death. Someone who had all their bones broken in their body!! THIS IS TORTURE! What happened there was a bunch of idiots not knowing what their doing (I don't think they even achieved anything) but it definately wasn't torture in the full meaning of this word.
I think that part of the problem is that people have become complacent in their lives, they got set in their routines and they forgot all the downed airliners, all the people in those 2 towers, people from the Lockerbie (sp?) and so on. Yes it is easy to sit at home and talk about moral high ground while there are people who are getting killed by an brain washed enemy who's only goal is to kill others even at the cost of his/her own life in order to achieve eternal salvation (not to even mention the virgins). Oh and who does the brain washing? the religious fanatics who want POWER.

A. I live on Earth like everybody else. Where did you think I live?
Yes, war sucks...I just don't like how Rumsfeld doesn't view it as a war, exactly. First, it isn't a declared war. Second, Rumsfeld thinks the Powell Doctrine only applies to war, not current operations in Iraq. He views those differently, more like "winning the peace".
A. I don't know what you like, but being forced to play naked Twister with other men would be torture for me. Actually, being tied up naked with a bag over your head and kept awake for a long time meets the definition of torture. It may not be a scene from Resevoir Dogs, but it is legally torture.

???Who forgot the terrorist attacks? Not me. I'm all for hunting down those terrorists. But what does that have to do with Iraq? Bin Laden still breathes fresh air and is probably planning more attacks, while we are f'ing around in Iraq. Imagine if a fraction of the manpower and equipment used in Iraq was applied to the hunt for Bin Laden. He is a PROVEN direct threat to the United States, but we are putting up less than a 100% effort to capture or kill him.

It is NOT easy to sit at home and talk about moral high ground. There are too many of you out there that are all too willing to sink down to the level of the enemy. You are all too quick to trade rights and liberties for the illusion of safety. The way that the U.S. treats prisoners is paramount because it effects how U.S. prisoners are treated. Berg was beheaded by those low-lifes because they were getting back at us for the way Iraqi prisoners were treated.

When the U.S. Government can classify people as "suspected terrorists" or "enemy combatants" and use civilian contractors or other non-military personnel (CIA) to interrogate them on foreign soil...then it gets murky. What laws apply? To whom? How are Iraqi laws and courts going to decide when there is no Iraqi government? :laugh:

 

[Kejtar]

A. I live on Earth like everybody else. Where did you think I live?
Yes, war sucks...I just don't like how Rumsfeld doesn't view it as a war, exactly. First, it isn't a declared war. Second, Rumsfeld thinks the Powell Doctrine only applies to war, not current operations in Iraq. He views those differently, more like "winning the peace".
A. I don't know what you like, but being forced to play naked Twister with other men would be torture for me. Actually, being tied up naked with a bag over your head and kept awake for a long time meets the definition of torture. It may not be a scene from Resevoir Dogs, but it is legally torture.

I agree with you on that, but things were bad before those thing came out and I don't think they make a difference, just give an excuse.
Anyways, those terrorist that attacked the towers are also linked to the same terrorists who continuously attack the troops in Iraq. There is at least one justification for the war for you. Other ones? well, people were opressed by the regime, regime was power hungry and broke all the conditions under which the first gulf war was stopped. Need I go on?
Oh and those responsible for the prisoner scandals, yeah, they should be put to hard labor for life, but the war still needs to go on.

 

[aspera]

I agree with you on that, but things were bad before those thing came out and I don't think they make a difference, just give an excuse.
Anyways, those terrorist that attacked the towers are also linked to the same terrorists who continuously attack the troops in Iraq. There is at least one justification for the war for you. Other ones? well, people were opressed by the regime, regime was power hungry and broke all the conditions under which the first gulf war was stopped. Need I go on?
Oh and those responsible for the prisoner scandals, yeah, they should be put to hard labor for life, but the war still needs to go on.

Well, "those responsible for the prisoner scandal" might not just be the low-level enlisted people in the pictures.

Some of the terrorists that attack troops in Iraq came into Iraq from other countries after the fact. I guess it is a better strategy to draw them into Iraq for a fight instead of fighting them on American soil. I still don't think that there was a strong link before the war started. Saddam was connected with terroists, but different ones. He allowed anti-Isreali terrorists to operate in Iraq, if I recall.

We were told that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs and was directly supporting Al Qaeda, who were an imminent threat to the U.S. They were planning another attack. That's a strong reason to go to war...anything less than that is iffy.

 

[Lupine]

Hey, Ms. Wolf,

I just want you to know you have a place to stay if ever you decide to do the Rubicon. Thank you for protecting us back here in the homeland.

Lupine

 

[ladywolf]

Lupine,
I really do appreciate it, I may take you up on the offer, you just never know!

Kris
(ms wolf)

 

[Jeepin_rebel]

You forgot to mention the dozens of virgins part...

Actually they retranslated it. Its 12 virginains....sorry lol

 

[Jeepin_rebel]

Well i'm not a big beer person, but ya never know where I'm gonna pop up. if I get the duty station i want i'll be back in the land of the pac NW, and i'll possibly be able to hit some more jeep runs. at the very least when I take leave, I may end up flyin in and just riding w/ you guys since my 'wheels are in germany!

Kristen

Hey Krisrten. Sorry i didnt get a chance to stop in but they didnt let me hardly take a breath when i came back threw. You know how it goes. Dont forget if yer in the midwest area my door is open.

Ryan

 

[ladywolf]

hey ryan, thanks for the offer, ya never know when i might show up hope to see ya come back thru biap before you leave country. would like to meet ya and talk jeeps (bette'rn talkin about most other things out here).


Kris

 

[8Mud]

The rule of law and/or the Geniva convention, only really works, if it´s respected by both sides of a conflict.
Sleep deprivation, being to hot/to cold, not getting the right food, not bathing for weeks, laying in an excretment filled holes, with other people laying on top of you, having to watch, while your fellows are maimed and injured. Sounds like tortue to me, but is really, the daliy fare for our grunts and many other soldiers. Not to mention the stress and fear factors.
Mouth off, to the wrong cop and get your head busted. Its a daily occurance on the streets of America.
I´m not saying, what the guards did was right, but not the world shaking event, the media and politicians made it out to be.
If a guard damages a prisoner, with premeditation, he should be held accountable. If he damages his spirit, he has probably made an enemy for life, that will probably bear consequences and encourage another generation of haters.
They looked long and hard for the Scuds, in 91, without much luck. 437,000 square kilometers is a rather large area to search, how hard would it be to hide 10-20 containers of bad stuff. They are still finding weapons catches in Germany after 60 years and Germany is a whole lot more densly populated than Iraq.

 

[Jeepin_rebel]

hey ryan, thanks for the offer, ya never know when i might show up hope to see ya come back thru biap before you leave country. would like to meet ya and talk jeeps (bette'rn talkin about most other things out here).


Kris

Your not kiddin Kris i almost got blown the fawk up today...good thing they dont bother aiming. The topic of war has grown old to myself and most of us i have met out here. Jeepin would be a nice change of pace.

Ryan

 

[ladywolf]

hey ryan glad yr safe....i gotta brave the sands and hadjis here sometime, gotta convoy somewheres, not sure where (cant really say). it would have upset me to hear that you got hurt, or worse......you better make it home safe, ya got me?


Kris