Iraq.....Ugh.

[ladywolf]

Don't worry if they send a bird across the airfield I'll patch it up and get him out there. Things here are relatively quiet, but the unit is being stupid (typical army). Hope to see yall out on the trail soon!

Kristen

 

[Tom R.]

There was more than enough misinformation spread around during the events that led to the war, so I wanted to clarify these points to help prevent more misinformation...

Last year I was not sure that invading Iraq was a good idea...the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi not Iraqi....

Two separate things. Iraq was not attacked because of 9/11.

Today we bombed and rocketed a mosque...probably not a way to influence folks...direct violation of the Geneva Convention..but saved US lives.

Direct or not, this clearly was NOT a violation of the Geneva Convention. Anytime a combatant uses a religious building, hospital, school, or any type of vehicle designated with the red cross or crescent as a place to stage hostilities, conduct military ops, store weapons, etc, then it becomes a legit target. Likewise, non-combatants who take up arms automatically become combats. The U.S. military has the law of armed conflict (LOAC) drilled into them and knows better than to attack something that does not fit the definition of a legal target.

 

[XJEEPER]

Good points Tom, I don't understand why it is so difficult to comprehend.......that war is never fair or just. Innocent lives are lost, collateral damage occurs. Just be grateful that it isn't your neighborhood, church or mosque that the bad guys decide to use as a base camp.

Think about this, how difficult is it for our troops to tell the difference between a supportive Iraqi that is happy to have Saddam gone, and a combative Iraqi that can't wait to get a US Marine in his crosshairs?

Quite often, their appearance is the same, but our troops must judge them each by their actions. We too, will be judged by our actions.

Like it or not, this is a war between Good and Evil.......you can't have it both ways......which side are you on?

This one won't be over soon so get used to hearing about folks getting killed....... Honor those that give their lives for our freedom by supporting them. It's easy to sit here and pass judgement on our leaders, but just like you and I......they aren't perfect. I'm tired of hearing about the politics of crude oil, comparisons to Vietnam and Watergate.........and I'm glad that we have a President with a spine, and morals.


God Bless our troops, pray for their safety and for victory.

 

[ECKSJAY]

There was more than enough misinformation spread around during the events that led to the war, so I wanted to clarify these points to help prevent more misinformation...

<snip>

Direct or not, this clearly was NOT a violation of the Geneva Convention. Anytime a combatant uses a religious building, hospital, school, or any type of vehicle designated with the red cross or crescent as a place to stage hostilities, conduct military ops, store weapons, etc, then it becomes a legit target. Likewise, non-combatants who take up arms automatically become combats. The U.S. military has the law of armed conflict (LOAC) drilled into them and knows better than to attack something that does not fit the definition of a legal target.

Hehe, I'll never forget my Drill SGT explaining this one during the Geneva/Hague class. He was explaining how hospitals and vehicles with red crosses aren't legit targets...<thick NY accent>No Pwivates, dat doesn't mean you put wed cwosses on an Apache an go light up da neighbahood.</thick NY accent>

 

[8Mud]

A little world view on the conflict in Iraq, the first thing on the evening news here in Germany, was the two missing GSG 9 troopers (German Green Berets) that went missing between Jordan and Bagdad, they were just driving along minding there own business. :doh: Then a spot about the Japenese hostages and how dangerous America is making the situation. :doh: Then about the 456 civilians the Americans have killed, guess our aim is so bad, we always miss the bad guys and hit the innocents. Then about the American casualties, inflated count. A few pictures of burning American tanks and then wounded Iraqi children. I´m paraphrasing a bit, but the flavor is pretty darn close.

 

[Tom R.]

Just goes to show that the U.S. isn't the only country with an obviously biased news media.

 

[ladywolf]

I will definitely agree when I say that the news is biased. There are a lot of good things in Iraq that we have done. Rebuilt schools, obviously captured saddam, brought back a better quality of life, one free from fear of repression for doing anything that their maniacal dictator doesnt like, among numerous other things. Granted, I dont like being deployed over here, but its my job. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability, then get my ass home so I can go wheel with my friends. All this extention they shoved on me is serving to do is buy more parts for my Jeep. Hehe. Well, off to do something (not sure yet, but i'll find something to do)

Kristen

 

[poomba]

I will definitely agree when I say that the news is biased. There are a lot of good things in Iraq that we have done. Rebuilt schools, obviously captured saddam, brought back a better quality of life, one free from fear of repression for doing anything that their maniacal dictator doesnt like, among numerous other things. Granted, I dont like being deployed over here, but its my job. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability, then get my ass home so I can go wheel with my friends. All this extention they shoved on me is serving to do is buy more parts for my Jeep. Hehe. Well, off to do something (not sure yet, but i'll find something to do)

Kristen

Bearhug, K. We'll keep the trails warm for ya..

 

[Tom R.]

I will definitely agree when I say that the news is biased. There are a lot of good things in Iraq that we have done. Rebuilt schools, obviously captured saddam, brought back a better quality of life, one free from fear of repression for doing anything that their maniacal dictator doesnt like, among numerous other things. Granted, I dont like being deployed over here, but its my job. And I'm going to do my job to the best of my ability, then get my ass home so I can go wheel with my friends. All this extention they shoved on me is serving to do is buy more parts for my Jeep. Hehe. Well, off to do something (not sure yet, but i'll find something to do)

Kristen

Be safe over there, Kristen. We appreciate what you're doing and hope for the safe and speedy return of all of our troops. I'll probably retire before I have the chance to deploy again......not that I want to go back to the Middle East.....but I understand the sacrifices you and the others are experiencing, so just wanted to say thanks.

Tom

 

[dellstopjeep]

i may be young, but i do know that im proud of what u are doin over there. be safe and hope to see u wheelin in my area someday/ :thumbup:

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

NEVER forget, no matter what the media presents, no matter what the reason is for your being there, that there are millions of people back home that appreciate your sacrifice and wish your safe return.
Politics-shmolitics...The majority of our troops have no choice in how, when and where they serve. To them belong our best wishes and support.
When back in the land of the big PX and ever near Chicago, give a holler, I can personally thank you and introduce my daughter to a real role model.

Gil "Thank You" Bullycatz


Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room.
-Sir Winston Churchill-

 

[Woodstock]

@ 8Mud: We are no mountain fortress (like the swiss). There are only mountains in the western area no mountains in the eastern. Also our troops are not the same since that time the russian invaded CZ. I was in our army 1991, and no one really wanted to fight. We also use old weapons by now (tanks - first used by the US in WWII).

I hope that your troops will come home soon and that there will be killed no one else. Some attacks are brutal to let you strike back in a brutal way too. Just work on to build a good government (which will be hard enough, because there are 2, 3 or 4 different kind of people - schiits, sunits, kurdis, ....). In my opinion there is no solution to leave this country and the country will stay in freedom. Sooner or later they will start a war against themselves to find another strong leader who will be like saddam was.

greetings from austria
Rainer

 

[ladywolf]

Hey everyone thank you for the support, it is a really great thing to have. Dell, you will hopefully see me at the end of this summer, talk to ecksjay and willis and them, i think we might all be planning a big bash/wheeling event or something. Poomba I might just hold you to that hug! I hope I do get to meet your daughter, I might end up going back to ft. campbell, so I'll be within a day's drive or so. The weather here is a balmy 90+ degrees, and its only getting hotter. Not much else going on, really, until we get our birds back. 1st cav guys brought in pieces parts of the apache that went down (sure you guys heard about it). it was literally just pieces parts.....terrible thing. anyhow, hope to see you guys at the end of the summer!

Kristen

 

[aspera]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4871859

http://www.counterpunch.org/procter02152003.html

The first link is the recent Hardball interview of Donald Rumsfeld. The second link is an article on the Powell Doctrine written over a year ago. I find it interesting how Donald Rumsfeld responded to Chris Mattew's question about the Powell Doctrine. (from memory) He basically said that the Powell Doctrine applied to war and that we are now in a different phase of operation (not war). (sorry, I couldn't find the quote)

So yes, Iraq is very different than Viet Nam. In Nam, we didn't win the war or peace. In Iraq, we won the war, but have not yet won the peace.

OR

You could argue that we are still at war and that the Powell Doctrine is not being applied.

Now, whether we in truth had a valid reason to go into Iraq is another question. We are in. Now we must get out, but how? We can't just leave. That would be the worst thing to do. According to Rumsfeld our exit strategy is to install an acceptable Iraqi government, then leave. All that the bad Iraqis have to do is prevent this.

They can do it by getting the date pushed back, or by making the new government unacceptable. It sounds like the turnover date is set in stone, but who exactly are we turning over the government to? If the new government is not accepted, then back to square one. Who's idea was it to fight religious zealots in the Middle East again?

That leads us to Saudi Arabia. They sure have a lot of oilfields that the U.S. would like to "safeguard". Hey, they are a terrorist harboring repressive monarchy right next to Iraq, too! We could go there after the re-election! Especially, now that we have airfields, ports, and bases in Iraq...and don't need Saudi Arabia's help.

 

[aspera]

Like it or not, this is a war between Good and Evil.......you can't have it both ways......which side are you on?

This one won't be over soon so get used to hearing about folks getting killed....... Honor those that give their lives for our freedom by supporting them. It's easy to sit here and pass judgement on our leaders, but just like you and I......they aren't perfect. I'm tired of hearing about the politics of crude oil, comparisons to Vietnam and Watergate.........and I'm glad that we have a President with a spine, and morals.

I want us to be on the side of Good, but we are seen as being on the side of Evil because we invaded and occupied their country. Oh, and we killed a bunch of them. Can you see why the Iraqis don't like Americans? In our defense, we claim that there was an imminent threat to the US or our allies from WMD or terrorism...yet we can offer no valid proof.

You are right. It won't be over soon. We hear about folks getting killed, but aren't allowed to see pictures of bodybags or caskets.

How many times do we have to invade Iraq before you get that it is over oil?

George W. Bush has a spine? Well, he did lead us into an unprovoked invasion of a smaller foreign country...kinda like Saddam did with Kuwait. So yeah, Bush has almost as much spine as Saddam did when he invaded Kuwait. :doh:

 

[Kejtar]

George W. Bush has a spine? Well, he did lead us into an unprovoked invasion of a smaller foreign country...kinda like Saddam did with Kuwait. So yeah, Bush has almost as much spine as Saddam did when he invaded Kuwait. :doh:

I don't know why this argument gets to me so much, but I think it's time for a small history lesson. Starting in about mid 1930's when Hitler came to power he kept taking small steps towards braking the agreements signed at the end of WWI. He bent rules about armament on warships, he bent rules about arming his miltary (creation of civil units trained as military units, just needing to be handed weapons to become fully active front line units). His political enemies had a tendency to dissapear overnight and the "under people" went to labor camps. And each time he did something "bad" that was caught by the rest of the world he was asked not to do it again and threatened with action. Then he invated and anexed Austria. Following that he annexed part of Czech republic. This last action IIRC sparked a bit stronger reaction: Brits sent out Chamberlain who at the end got assurances from Hitler that he is done and he will not attact anyone else.... Well we all know how that ended: a 6 year war which killed milions!

Jump now about 60 years into the future. We have Iraw which takes over Kuwait, which opresses the Kurds, people are afraid to speak out against current administration because they might not see the light of day again for doing so. Then after loosing the Gulf War and withdrawing from Kuwait, how many times have they broken the agreements resulting from the Gulf War? Agreements which by themselves were sufficient reason to elicit armed response? So we didn't find WMD. But you know what? I'm not that sure if they didn't have something going or had plans to have something going. You think that if we didn't move in things would go away? I don't think so. When the world waited and did nothing about Germany before WW2, everyone paid a price. That price was very high: it included a lot of dead, a lot of crippled and orphaned. Countries destroyed, infrastracture destroyed..... need I go on? If you read the rerports from Iraq, how many people say that they do not know what happened to their mother, father, brother, sister? They sometimes never came back home from going shopping or were taken at night and never heard from again. So let me ask again: what do you think would happen if we did nothing??

I lost my grandfather during WW2. I have never met him, my mother was 3 years old and to this day she talks about the memory of him being taken out of the house and noone knows what has happened to him. So the BS about having no right to go in and save the innocent people of Iraq just drives me up the wall. Yes I know not all are innocent, but hey, not all Germans were that innocent nor not all Japanese were innocent and look how they all turned out now!!

Oh yeah.. media.. politicians that are against war and so on. Call me crazy, but they are mostly crooked. They will take on a viewpoint that will be best for their political career. After coming back from Vietnam Kerry chose to be "anti war". The reason I say chose is that because IMHO it was a very convenient time to be anti war were such sympathies would get one better chances of political advancement. Same thing with media: what sells? Controversy sells!! How many times do you see articles, hear news reports about how bad the war is? What about all the good that came out of it? I have a sattelite which gets feeds from Europe (no it's not DIshnetwork nor DirectTV) and it actually even gets some middle eastern stations (I just don't know the latter languages so I got no clue what they are saying). Anyways, I get to often see the other side of the war. Reports about people being saved, helped and rescued. Some reports I have seen made me thing of pictures showing how the allied forces have freed people from the concentration camps......

Ok.... time to get of my :soapbox: and do something constructive.
Kejtar
P.S.
To all those that are crying about "someone" they know being kidnapped and sent to go to war.... last time I checked draft was not in effect and all that joined up they did so out of their free will.... and if someone joins the military thiking that they will never have to fight... well.... they should ask to be dismissed due to mental problems as they have to be mental to think so! Military=army=might have to actually fight some day!

 

[Kejtar]

Oh yeah... my deepest thanks to all those in service both abroad and at home!

 

[aspera]

Well, if I understand your arguement, then you compare Saddam to Hitler. That's a pretty good comparision. Both ruthless dictators were unchecked for too long. The difference is that Hitler was a direct and immediate threat to the U.S. and our allies. Saddam wasn't. Since the first Gulf War he kept inside his borders.

Now, he was still a very bad guy...but why did Iraq need to be dealt with so urgently so late in the game when other countries were just as bad? Why ignore Saddam's aggression for decades and then get hot on taking him out? What about the other countries that have killed millions, or starve their own people, or have nuclear weapons and missles? You know, the ones without oil...

What do I think would have happened if we would have not invaded Iraq?
1. A couple hundred U.S. soldiers, airmen, and sailors would still be alive.
2. Saddam would be getting closer to death every day.
3. We would have not diverted resources from Afghanistan.
4. We *might* have killed or captured the true immediate and proven threat to the U.S.----BIN LADEN.
5. We would have hundreds of millions of dollars, not spent on Iraq.
6. We could have gathered evidence supporting WMDs and terrorist ties...so that the U.S. doesn't look like a bunch of a$$holes.
7. We could have gotten other countries on board to supply money and soldiers, so that the cost was shared.
8. We could have had time to plan out:
A) who we would turn Iraq over to??
B) when we would turn it over?
C) how we would turn it over??
D) when we would get U.S. personnel out of Iraq?!?!
E) how we would get U.S. personnel out of Iraq?
F) a way to tell the U.S. and the world WHY we are in Iraq!

 

[Kejtar]

Well, if I understand your arguement, then you compare Saddam to Hitler. That's a pretty good comparision. Both ruthless dictators were unchecked for too long. The difference is that Hitler was a direct and immediate threat to the U.S. and our allies. Saddam wasn't. Since the first Gulf War he kept inside his borders.

Well you kind of missed my point. In the beginning Hitler also wasn't a threat to US. Also US bussineses supported the third reich in the beginning as well (remember the stuff about IBM and Ford?). So what I'm saying Saddam was bad and the claim that he is not a threat to us is BS as if he was not a threat then, then he was going to become a threat sooner or later.... and btw, I read up a bit about oil and stuff .... and guess what, most of US oil DOES NOT come from middle east! so again the argument that it's the war for oil is BS.

 

[JohnJohn]

Kristen
I not only believe in you, but your mission. Stay safe and your duty is not only appreciated, but JUST. Iraq is out modern day Germany. Lets' all remember our country fought side by side with Russia to defeat Hitler. Lets all hope that 30 years of COLD war is all that follows this.

Vietnam Comparison
I'm not old enough to compare, so unlike others I will not. I do know however that I never met my Uncle because of that war.

Ted Coppell
If what he did on Nightline the other night was to pay tribute to those fallen solders in Iraq...then why didn't he wait until the conflict was over, and then pay tribute? Ted, I see through you, and to use the faces and names of fallen solders to make a political statement sickens me.

9/11
In the last few weeks all we've heard about was whose fault 9/11 was. Those asking these questions are the same ones that would have been calling up the ACLU wanting to file class action suits against the airlines for profiling young Arab men. Can you imagine what the nightly news would have said if 3 months before 9/11 we stopped every young Arab man from boarding a plane?

Sorry to the plethora of topics, but those are some things I was feeling after reading the entire thread.