How soon until cruise missiles strike Iran?

XJEEPER said:
The point of war is for one side to be the WINNER!
Define the victory, please.
XJEEPER said:
To approach war in this PC manner is to accept defeat. (Vietnam ring any bells?)
Please show the bells.
Vietnam is:
1. Continuation of a French colonial war.
2. Escalated after White House gave a permission to drop support for South Vietnam leader, which lead to his killing.
3. Fighting mostly against China, which means ENEMY HAS ENDLESS SUPPLY OF MEN.
4. China made a huge, but unsuccessfull attack and US general public support of war dropped.

What bells rang ?

XJEEPER said:
Tell me our government isn't corrupt, when we prosecute Border Agents for upholding the law and acting in self-defense

I would guess it has something to do with supporting the social hierarchy. One way to keep salaries of non-educated workers low is to let more workers in.

Andrey
 
ECKSJAY said:
I haven't seen a post here that said that. I think you're fabricating this portion of your 'argument.' Your troll attempt failed miserably.

:eeks1:
Then go back and re-read the thread. There is a troll in my pants....
 
nevermind i'll start a new thread
 
Last edited:
Thread-I_like_where_this_thread_is_going.jpg
 
You have to think tactically and stratigically to even begin to understand the whole thing. And change your focus from point, to a broader view at the same time.
Both the Shiite and Sunni influence has been expanding for decades. They are often in conflict, much like catholic and Protestants, but share a common religion much like Christianity combines both protestant and catholic.
The straight of Hormuz is stratically, a very important spot, critical.
Anybody who can deny a thing has some control over that thing. Anybody who can destroy a thing, has some control over that thing (paraphrasing Sun Tzu).
I've said from the beginning, that Iraq was more a tactical move than a stratigic goal, same with Afganistan. The US has troops on two borders with Iran and agreements in countries to the North of them for air bases.
This has got to make Iran nervous. Imagine the Russians in Canada and Mexico, twenty years ago.
Seriously the only reason America would twist the Tigers tail this hard, is if they had a plan to deal with it's teeth.
I believe Iran has been the goal from the beginning, 911 and Sadams supposed WMD, just the excuse to move into the area in force.
Do you actually think any sane person would telegraph ther true stratigic goals. This would be very foolish.
The US has just about got to consoludate there oil supplies and delivery routes, to begin to deal with the powder keg in the middle east, Indian Ocean and east coast of Africa. And to deal with the Chinese and Indians in the future. Europe is approaching critical mass, with various flavors of Muslim immigration. Sociologists have a formula, that says when a non integrated sub population reaches 15-20%, bad things happen.
The big tip off will be when, draft registration becomes important, your draft card is checked at traffic stops by the Police and for job inteviews, school registration etc.
It's entirely possible America has decided to take charge of about twenty percent of the worlds oil supplies and the shipping routes to deliver it. Stabilize the supply and insure a source. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
 
8Mud said:
And to deal with the Chinese and Indians in the future.
Yes, sure. In the future, when the population of USA will become 2 billion people [from India:)].

8Mud said:
Europe is approaching critical mass, with various flavors of Muslim immigration. Sociologists have a formula, that says when a non integrated sub population reaches 15-20%, bad things happen.
They already do, in France.

8Mud said:
The big tip off will be when, draft registration becomes important, your draft card is checked at traffic stops by the Police and for job inteviews, school registration etc.
...
It's entirely possible America has decided to take charge of about twenty percent of the worlds oil supplies and the shipping routes to deliver it. Stabilize the supply and insure a source. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Actually, you might be right. Given the rate of job outsourcing, the majority of US population has to die somewhere, why not in war with Iran, securing oil reserves for those on top in the meantime.

What do you do for living ?

Andrey
 
Slonopotam said:
What do you do for living ?

Andrey

As little as humanly possible. When I was young, people made a big thing about my IQ being a buck and half. Then wondered what went wrong when I refused to play the game.:)
I'm a game manager, do game census and health inspections. Take care of problem animals.
Was a professional soldier, did some time with Nato and then the State Department, was wearing more than a few hats concurrently.
My time with State convinced me that no matter how well we blunder along, things will eventually turn out worse than anticipated. I never was very impressed with the State Department. Way to much personality and inflated egos. Most everybody in a policy position, is a legend in there own mind. Ninty percent of the work day at State is spent at career enhancement, with a few rank a file trying to get stuff done, despite the best efforts of management to sabotoge any iniative. Spock would have a nervous breakdown in short order, working for the State department...
Image is everything.
 
Last edited:
Slonopotam said:
Define the victory, please.

Please show the bells.
Vietnam is:
1. Continuation of a French colonial war.
2. Escalated after White House gave a permission to drop support for South Vietnam leader, which lead to his killing.
3. Fighting mostly against China, which means ENEMY HAS ENDLESS SUPPLY OF MEN.
4. China made a huge, but unsuccessfull attack and US general public support of war dropped.

What bells rang ?





I would guess it has something to do with supporting the social hierarchy. One way to keep salaries of non-educated workers low is to let more workers in.

Andrey
  • Victory=Stabilizing Iraq to the point that all the tribes see that working together has much greater value than trying to take control individually. Self-governing and self-protection are the obvious goals. If we withdraw prematurely, the strongest tribe will just take control, resulting in civil war and most likely, the extension of Iran's radical agenda across Iraq and the region.
  • My reference to Vietnam should have been more descriptive. The media and US officials supporting a "redeployment" withdrawl strategy are leveraging the US population by focusing only death tolls and loses, not successes that are taking place. This strategy was honed during the Vietnam War. Ageed, Vietnam was a much different situation than what is taking place in the Middle East.
  • Virtually all of a record $16.6 billion dollars sent back to Mexico in 2006 were from workers in the US. The amount is a 24% increase over 2005, according to the Bank of Mexico, and is the second highest industry in Mexico, surpassing tourism but behind petroleum.
  • "The American Hospital Association reported that its member facilities provided $21 billion in uncompensated health-care services last year. While not all those costs can be attributed to undocumented aliens, new Census data show that non-citizens are, by far, this country's largest group of uninsured residents — 43 percent of the total. "
So, just over $9 billion dollars in health care is also spent on illegals. This expenses in ultimately distributed to the US poplulation that does have healthcare. Add that to the $16+ billion sent to Mexico in earnings by illegals......builds a mighty nice fence.

How does this benefit the US or as you stated, our social hierarchy?

Does the economic benefit of service provided by illegals laboring in the U.S. offset the expense?
 
XJEEPER said:
  • Victory=Stabilizing Iraq to the point that all the tribes see that working together has much greater value than trying to take control individually. Self-governing and self-protection are the obvious goals. If we withdraw prematurely, the strongest tribe will just take control, resulting in civil war and most likely, the extension of Iran's radical agenda across Iraq and the region.

    Does the economic benefit of service provided by illegals laboring in the U.S. offset the expense?


  • First 8MUD I think you have been reading too much Tom Clancy. While that sounds like an interesting theory, the problem is change of leadership. You can't keep a secret like that for so long and then expect a new administration to take the ball.

    XJEEPER, I will try to stay off of my soap box if you stay of yours. immigration is whole different 10 page thread.:D

    I'll do something weird and get honest. I haven't got the slightest idea how to resolve the position we are in in Iraq. I get my information and try to balance it with my gut. In this age of information, it also makes it the age of misinformation. I listen to the left and right and entertainment news programs yap back and forth. As a citizen it is hard to know the truth. Here is what my gut tells me.

    The Iraq government is no where near assuming control of their country or doing anything to improve it.

    Sectarian violence is close to civil war levels. (Not sure who to believe on that one.)

    The insurgency (non-Iraqis and ex- Huessinists) has strengthened and increased their effectiveness against us.

    There seems to be continued displeasure at the lack of basic services like water and electricity.

    The Iraqi citizens themselves seem to be absent from the whole process except when their bodies are dumped on the side of the road.

    Our military is weakening. The same troops have been there too long, and new enlistments overall are down. Yes I know they are still strong willed and confident in their mission, but their numbers and rotations are not improving.

    The administration has had 4 years and the problems are worse. I'm not Bush bashing. My point is that they have had free reign to do what they wanted and how they wanted. Some have complained, but had no power to do anything. So if you have the freedom to run things exactly like you want, and things seem to be going in the wrong direction instead of improving, what am I as an American citizen to think?

    Here is more honesty, the reason the Dems complain all day and don't talk about solutions is because they don't have any! There are no apparent easy solutions to this. But here is my problem, stay the course is not a solution. Judging by the last 4 years, the next 4 years of the same would be worse. So why don't you give me your solution.

    How do we incorporate the citizens?
    How do we prop up a government?
    How do we stop the sectarian violence?
    How do we extinguish the insurgency and the terrorists?
    How do we exterminate Al-Quida?
    How do we increase troop numbers and rotations?
    And back on topic- How do we keep Iran at bay and show them we are not fawking around.

    Yes, the left has no solutions, but I don't see any from the right. I hear all the party dogma from both sides, but as a citizen, I don't see any solutions, results, or turn around. I see none of my elected officials stepping up, taking charge, and accomplishing anything. All I hear is we need to keep doing the same for a very long time. That is not a solution. So what is your's??? I sincerely want to know.
 
Last edited:
XJEEPER said:
[*]Victory=Stabilizing Iraq to the point that all the tribes see that working together has much greater value than trying to take control individually. Self-governing and self-protection are the obvious goals. If we withdraw prematurely, the strongest tribe will just take control, resulting in civil war and most likely, the extension of Iran's radical agenda across Iraq and the region.
Is the army the right tool to teach Iraqis to love each other ?
XJEEPER said:
Not successes that are taking place.
Could you point out the success in Iraq ?
XJEEPER said:
The amount is a 24% increase over 2005, according to the Bank of Mexico, and is the second highest industry in Mexico, surpassing tourism but behind petroleum.
How far behind petroleum is it ?
I think 24% can be trusted as an unofficial indication of inflation. Scary, isn't it ?
XJEEPER said:
[*]"The American Hospital Association reported that its member facilities provided $21 billion in uncompensated health-care services last year.
I remember I received a bill from hospital this year. The bill stated something like 'original charges 15000', then 'negotiated amount 3000', then 'paid by insurance 2000'.
My point is that NOBODY pays the prices they used to get that 21 billion. You can scale is down by 5 at least.
I also remember a story how some CEO was scamming the industry geniusly shovelling workload between two hospitals north west coast. I bet it was a few billions.
XJEEPER said:
Add that to the $16+ billion sent to Mexico in earnings by illegals......builds a mighty nice fence.
What don't you like about them spending the money elsewhere ?
XJEEPER said:
How does this benefit the US or as you stated, our social hierarchy?
I did not mean that. I know a few people and their stories and it looks like the market of professional services is much more protected than the low-educated jobs market. That might be done intentionally to keep salaries of educated workers higher than those of ones with lower levels of education. This is it.
XJEEPER said:
Does the economic benefit of service provided by illegals laboring in the U.S. offset the expense?
Unlikely, but how my former boss put it, those are different accounts.

Andrey
 
Powerman said:
First 8MUD I think you have been reading too much Tom Clancy. While that sounds like an interesting theory, the problem is change of leadership. You can't keep a secret like that for so long and then expect a new administration to take the ball.
Just a few tips, read between the lines. Don't listen so much to what is said and pay more attention to what is done. Pay attention to what isn't said (If the media highlights the south, look north). What isn't said or highlighted is often more important than what is said. Public statements and bi polar arguments that are defined by the media and/or politicians, often seem to be misdirection. The facts are often much different than they are protrayed. Let your imagination run wild and you may be nearer the truth than you think.
If our governement wasn't capable of any long range stratigic planning, it would be a sorry state of affairs. Are they really incapable of a little (or a lot) of misdirection? :)
The Iranian problem has been growing for twenty years or more. It got crazy during the Regen administration, unfinshed business. a whole lot of administrations, have defered the problem. Perhaps for too long.
If our govenrment is actually advertising it's stratigic goals on CNN or whatever, I'd concider them to be incompetant.
My inclination is to listen to what is said, but to pay much more attention to what is done.
The only real paralells, between Vietnam and Iraq are that both have a stratigic position and the tactics of the insurgency. Vietnem was all about denying China a corridor to South East asia. And at the same time containing, but not eliminating the North Vietnemese army. They wanted to keep North Vietnam strong enough to be a check against the Chinese, but contain it in the North. Weaken them enough to eliminate the threat to South Vietnam, but not enough to break them.
Though this may also be a tactic in Iraq, bend them but don't break them. So they are a credible deterent to Iran and/or Turkey.
The Kosovo campaign was all about keeping the Albanians in Kosovo and Albania and not letting them be pushed to the North as immigrants.
The Bosnian war was being planned for five years, before anybody actually started shooting. I used to hunt in the mountains there and noticed a whole bunch of family bunkers being built, years before it turned to chit. Nobody seemed too inclined to intervene, until everybody pretty much shot there wad.
German soldiers were in Afghanistan before, during and after the Russians invaded. Before during and after the Taliban took control. And are there now, the how and why I'll leave to your imagination. My best guess is Uranium in the North West of the country, right in the middle of the warlord (likely Persian) controlled Poppy fields.
Just to throw something out there, if the Iragis are killing each other, the body count (of those likely to be belligerant and many innocents) goes up, but they are expending much of there energy fighting each other. Sooner or later, hopefully, they will run out of resources and/or the will to fight.
The Shiites in Iraq seem to be wanting to husband there forces. Which is a good sign, I think.
 
Last edited:
Trust me, my imagination running wild is not a good thing. Yes I know about misdirection. Yes I know everything doesn't just stop every 4 years. And yes I know that our Government has done things that the public will never know, nor do they want to.

However, I am also a little more skeptical too. I don't believe "our Politicians" are capable of long range strategic planning for the country on a scale you describe. If they are just playing dumb for more misdirection, then they deserve an Academy Award.:D
 
Powerman said:
However, I am also a little more skeptical too. I don't believe "our Politicians" are capable of long range strategic planning for the country on a scale you describe. If they are just playing dumb for more misdirection, then they deserve an Academy Award.:D

I think of it like being at work. The "Management" will shake the hands, be the face of the company, talk to all the big shots, etc. Then they need to come to me to get the answers to the questions they have been asked. I give them the answers, how it is best done, and what it's going to cost. Then they get to go talk more , tote "thier" great ideas on how to make things work, and earn so much business for the company. While I roll my eyes in the background. I would think the government is like that, too.
 
I'm not saying it isn't "possible", or that I can't see how. Also, I have no doubt there are not a few masters in the background pulling puppet strings. I just don't believe that Afghanistan and Iraq are part of a 20 year old grand master plan to bring down Iran. I simply don't believe that is "probable". That would be something I would love to read from Clancy though. There is some truth to his stuff that makes many uncomfortable. I've just never been much of a conspiracy hound.
 
ECKSJAY said:
So uhh, how soon do you all think it will be until cruise missiles hit Iran?

Do you realize that it means flood of refugees everywhere, including USA ?
Those would not be people who want to change their ways, just to escape the bombs.

My advise - enforce the border security and straighten the immigration policies first.

Andrey
 
I heard by April. And it will be led by Israel, supported by the US.

Unfortunately, Iran has purchased the best systems in the Russian and Chinese defensive arsenal, and likely a few nukes.
 
Last edited:
Slonopotam said:
Could you point out the success in Iraq ?
Andrey
Here is a bit of information on that aspect. Great timing too, I just posted it on my site. And this is just one article of many that the mainstream press does not bother to cover much.

General Cites Reconstruction Progress in Iraq
By Jim Garamone

WASHINGTON
, Feb. 28, 2007 – Americans need to hear and see more about reconstruction in Iraq to fully understand the situation there, the general in charge of Army Corps of Engineers efforts in the Persian Gulf region said today.
“We see successes in the U.S. government’s construction program here” every day, Army Brig. Gen. Michael J. Walsh, commander of the Corps of Engineers Gulf Region Division, in Baghdad, said during a news conference there.

He said the U.S. effort is putting in essential services, often in places that never had them.

Walsh helps oversee more than $22 billion worth of U.S. taxpayer money going to reconstruction. “This money was to jumpstart the Iraqi economy,” he said.

In 2003, the World Bank estimated that Iraq needed between $60 billion and $80 billion to address infrastructure shortfalls from the Saddam Hussein regime. The U.S. contribution was to lay the foundation the Iraqi government can build on, Walsh said.

The basic services being built are facilities Americans take for granted: access to medical facilities, fire stations, neighborhood schools, paved roads, clean water, sewage treatment, irrigation, and so on. On any given day the Gulf Region Division is working on approximately 1,100 projects across the country, Walsh said.

“The vast majority of these projects are on track and good solid construction and meeting the deadlines we have set,” he said. “If there is only one percent of those 1,100 projects that are troubled, that’s only 11 projects and its those projects that tend to spotlighted, and that’s not fair to the American taxpayers or the reconstruction efforts that are under way.

“I am proud of the efforts of our team in the military, defense civilians, contractors and Iraqi associates continue to put forth in increasing the services,” the general continued. “We have set our goals. We keep track of them, and we are going to meet them.”

A laundry list of projects includes building 10,045 schools in the country, completing 154 border forts, completing 92 of 97 planned fire stations. The district is funding 34 post office projects, and officials are renovating 102 railroad stations.

“Americans should hear of the current 989 projects where we are advancing and enhancing the lives of the Iraqi people,” Walsh said. “Americans should see the photos of Iraqis being educated in clean, safe learning environments or playing in newly built youth centers. Americans should see in the infants being cared for in modern medical facilities that previously did not exist.”

As an example, the general discussed the electrical situation in Iraq. Prior to March 2003, “much of Iraq received four to eight hours of power a day, with Baghdad receiving 16 to 22 hours of power,” he said. “Today, electricity is distributed much more equitably around Iraq with much of the country receiving 10 to 12 hours of power.”

He said Baghdad remains a problem, receiving six to seven hours of power daily. “To understand electricity, we must understand the whole picture,” he said. “After the war ended in 2003, demand for power rose 32 percent. At present, we estimate that demand for power has risen more than 70 percent since 2003. People are able to buy more items: washing machines, televisions, air conditioners. However, it means we must continually add capacity to the Iraqi system. We find ourselves constantly chasing increasing demand.”

He said the U.S. goal was never to produce 24 hours of power, but to update and stabilize the Iraqi national grid. However, security concerns have caused problems with more than 17,000 kilometers of transmission lines that are often insurgent targets, he added.

Walsh said the first new hospital in Iraq since 1986 will open in 2008. The Basra Children’s Hospital is a 94-bed facility that will focus on acute care and oncology. The facility will provide accommodations for physicians and nurses, outpatient examination rooms, a pediatric intensive care unit as well as four general pediatric wards.

“Currently, Iraq’s ability to care for its most seriously ill children is virtually nonexistent,” Walsh said. The hospital will partially address that lack.

The cost of these reconstruction efforts is high, not only in money, the general said. “We have lost good people and had setbacks due to the insurgency and security difficulties,” he said. “But we still have completed more than 3,000 projects to help the country of Iraq to jumpstart its economy and solidify its infrastructure.”
 
After watching politicians for the last 50 years I have came to the conclusion that "we have the best politicians money can buy". I have listened to them tell about all the wonderful things they are going to do (before being elected) and doing absolutely nothing after being elected except work toward getting elected again.
As far as the whacko in Iran, he says Allah has told him to eliminate all infadells who are not of the Islam faith in 2007. What you believe is up to you, according to an ex CIA official (who wrote a book on the subject) I can't think of the name right now, there are 20 suit case nukes in 20 cities in the US that will be set off if we attack Iran, the ones that are missing from Russia that can't be accounted for.
I will look up the name of the book and post it later.

I think I'll take a nap now after reading this 7 page post.
 
92DripCherokee said:
Unfortunately, Iran has purchased the best systems in the Russian and Chinese defensive arsenal, and likely a few nukes.

The wasn't much progress made in Russian defensive systems since the eighties. Current statements of Russian officials about 'super-duper-puper systems' is just relabelling of very old systems. Chinese, on the other hand, are catching up with Russia in jet fighters production, still buying jet engines from Russia. They are going to take all the market from Russia eventually.

Anyway, it is sufficient to buy stuff, you have to know how to operate it.
My opinion - guerilla war is what these guy can do the best. This is what they trained to do by CIA.
Andrey
 
Back
Top