Gun confiscations post Katrina...

[Gil BullyKatz]

Not from criminals mind you...

But even from law abiding citizens...

Example:

http://mfile.akamai.com/12948/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2005/0908/4946889.300k.asx

Unreal...

They couldn't take out a couple bands of roving thugs and a few snipers...

But they can tackle an old lady...

Unreal...

On her own property...

Without a warrant...

Inside her house that she allowed them to enter...

and after repeated requests from her for them to leave...

AND she's not even a minority!!!

 

[Dvipercop]

This is one of those situations I can almost guarantee you the officers dont want to be put in. Unfortunately, they have orders to remove citizens, they have to follow through with those orders. In this day in age, if they were to leave someone behind and that person were to get hurt or sick later, that person could very easily sue the city. And what sucks is that they would probably win. Like I said, it's a crappy situation and a crappy job to do, but it has to be done.
All to often the officers are the ones who get frowned upon and ripped apart, when in reality they are simply following what they are told to do. It's not their choice to have to take an elderly lady to the ground because she has a gun and is refusing to leave, it's just what they have to do. The command staff are the ones that make these choices, they are the ones that should be scrutinized.

 

[Dirt]

they have to take her to the ground huh? they couldn't have grabbed her wrist?




:bs:

 

[Dvipercop]

When a gun is involved, it becomes a whole different story. Granted she didn't appear to be threatning with it, but since I wasn't there at the time, I can't judge on the officers response. All an officer wants to do is go home at the end of the day. I'm a strong believer in the "Better safe than sorry" approach, especially when it comes to my life.

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

they have to take her to the ground huh? they couldn't have grabbed her wrist?




:bs:

'Zactly...

Suppose she gets her neck broken when a 200# cop falls on top of her...

No lawsuit there right?

Then again...

They were CHP...

 

[roXJeepr]

...they have orders to remove citizens, they have to follow through with those orders. In this day in age, if they were to leave someone behind and that person were to get hurt or sick later, that person could very easily sue the city. The command staff are the ones that make these choices, they are the ones that should be scrutinized.

I agree in most cases. And wouldn't it have been as simple as having these people that refuse to leave sign a waiver or something of the sort stating that they can have no recourse against the governing bodies for NOT being forced to leave?

 

[Dvipercop]

wouldn't it have been as simple as having these people that refuse to leave sign a waiver or something of the sort stating that they can have no recourse against the governing bodies for NOT being forced to leave?

In my opinion that would have been a great idea. Unfortunately that's a decision that would have to be made by the "higher ups", which aren't usually known for their ability to contemplate outcomes other than that of which they've already prepared for. In other words, they prepare for one set event and are unable to adapt to meet people halfway on things. Perhaps the "grandma tackle" could have been avoided with such a waiver.

 

[8Mud]

When a gun is involved, it becomes a whole different story. Granted she didn't appear to be threatening with it, but since I wasn't there at the time, I can't judge on the officers response. All an officer wants to do is go home at the end of the day. I'm a strong believer in the "Better safe than sorry" approach, especially when it comes to my life.

What was it one guy said "Why don´t the police just treat me with benign neglect"
What in the heck makes your life more important than anybody Else's. There is an old saying about right and might, just because you have the might, doesn't give you the right.
Cops just don´t get it most ways, that´s one old lady, that will probably hate cops the rest of her life. Probably never pay taxes again. Probably be seriously pissed and is probably psychologically damaged.
Cops often have a, them against us mentality and a whole lot of the thems, were turned that way by the police, enemies rather than allies.
What would you post, if that old lady was your mother.
I´m beginning to think this whole New Orleans thing, is turning into one of the biggest land grabs in history and a lot of people are smelling the money and the uniformed thugs are right in there herding the sheep.
The federal government has appropriated enough money to pay like $60,000 to every displaced person. The government is handing out $2000 debit cards, maybe, if you qualify.
In the mean time, the police are right in there, turning people with homes, into homeless people. I wonder how many displaced persons will be still be homeless in say 2 years, 5 years.
The Police were asked in (so they say) to deal with the thugs, end up assaulting old ladies and evicting people from there homes, figures.
I wonder how long it´s gonna take, before most anybody in a uniform becomes a target in New Orleans. Some people just don´t herd worth a darn, maybe the best solution is to treat them with benign neglect. Maybe a mans home is his castle, should override whatever policy the thinkers dream up next. There policies sure haven't worked very well so far.

One old lady that made it through a hurricane, then a flood, then bands of thugs, then assaulted by the cops, then thrown out of her house to become a wanderer at the mercy of society, political policy and relief organizations, that may or may not actively try to help her, but probably make her search for relief.
Wouldn't it just be more humane to shot her and put her out of her misery.
I guess when you get a badge you loose your humanity, probably why so many cops are drunks, trying to anathematize there consciences.

 

[Eagle]

This is being discussed all over the Internet. The consensus is that it is possibly legal to evict the people, but it is definitely not legal to take away their firearms. Not legal under Louisiana law, and not legal under the U.S. Constitution.

It's also not logical. The cops ran away and hid for a week, then when the National Guard has made it safe enough for the they come back ... and take the guns away from the people who need them to do the job the police were supposed to do.

On another forum I saw a report from a guy who says he received it from someone highly-enough placed to have been in on the NO briefings. That suggests either one of the visiting LEOs, or one of the visiting NG units. Then again, it's the Internet, so it could have been Donald Duck.

Anyway, the sense was that the briefing came right out and said that the city officials want people to leave, so those who feel capable to defend themselves are to be disarmed in the hope that they will then feel forced to leave, since they no longer have the means with which to defend themselves.

Y'all can make your own conclusions. IMHO, it sounds just slimey enough that I would believe it of the NO and LA "powers that be."

 

[5-90]

The biggest problem with "higher-higher" is that they've been breathing that rarefied air so damn long that they've usually forgotten what it's like to work on the sharp end - and that's assuming that they ever did work for a living in the first place.

It's also a sad fact that our society has become so litigious - I think Shakespeare was right. "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." While it may not solve all of our ills as a society, it should help with a few and can certainly do no harm. Don't get me started on how we should handle frivolous lawsuits - but the lawyers would be hit nice and hard when they lose, and it would be more difficult to win a civil suit when the premise is specious. I'll go into that if asked - I'd have to dig up my notes on it.

Meanwhile, while orders may come from higher-higher, it's also a fact that there is a certain amount of discretion allowed for nearly everyone who has to follow them. If someone is doing well where they are and all is in order, there is no reason to forcibly eject them. Especially now that the storm's over - the waters won't be rising anymore.

Blind obedience isn't discharging a duty - it's being stupid. That's why, for instance, the Oath of Enlistment carries the phrase "...obey all lawful orders..." - there's that leeway thing again. There's no oath that requires blind obedience - these are supposed to be reasonably intelligent people who should be able to use some sort of discretion. If they can't exercise discretion, they should not be in the job.

Moreover, that "lawful orders" thing comes into play here again - removing the means for an individual to defend herself, when legally held and lawfully used, is not following a lawful order. Last time I checked, the Constitution had not been suspended anywhere in this country (but I'm not so sure about California...) An order that requires action in violation of common and enacted law is itself unlawful, and should not be obeyed. For an excellent example of refusal to follow a lawful order, refer to the case of SP4 Michael G. New, regarding a UN deployment in violation of US/UN agreements and US/UN staffing regulations (as well as a direct violation of the Oath of Enlistment as intended by higher-higher.)

5-90

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

I found a post on another board...


Sig-Sauer...

Is trying to keep with up with of orders from LEO's in the gulf coast area...

Hi-Cap magazines and select-fire assault rifles...

'cuz with all the firefights they've had and will have right???

Sounds like since there's a ton of money being sent down there...

Time to stock up right?

I'm sure it's not just LE agencies...

but anyone that's got an open license to spend courtesy of Katrina...

Meanwhile...

a $2000 debit card for people that lost their homes...

I want to keep you posted on what is going on here at SIGARMS in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina.

As you can imagine our phones have been ringing off the hook in our law enforcement sales office. As one of our LE team said, "They must have SIG on speed dial." That's not entirely true but it sure feels like it.

So here is the update. SIGARMS® is responding to emergency requests from law enforcement in the hurricane ravaged areas of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama and is expediting orders to agencies in those states.

Already SIGARMS has shipped extra pistol magazines for the Louisiana State Police who carry the P220 pistol, and at the agency’s request will be sending all available remaining P220 magazines. As a result, SIGARMS has suspended sale of the P220 pistol magazines to the commercial market. Commercial sales are expected to resume in October.

Additionally SIGARMS is working closely with officials at the ATF to expedite required paperwork for law enforcement agency transfer of the SG 551 and SG 552 select-fire rifles. Already, SIGARMS has made preparations to ship several hundred rifles to one Louisiana agency.

Due to the magnitude of the emergency facing law enforcement in the region hit by hurricane Katrina and the surrounding states which have taken in thousands of refugees, SIGARMS will give immediate priority to requests from area law enforcement agencies and expedite shipments of firearms, parts and accessories. Agencies in other parts of the country that are sending personnel and supplies to the region will also receive priority status to assist them in their efforts.

If you know of departments or officers in your area, or your own agency is sending people down and they are a SIG agency, please forward this information to the appropriate officers. Things are moving very fast and they may not have time to inquire about additional equipment they may need. We want to make sure that if they need something we get it to them ASAP.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause to our commercial dealers and you, our customers. We deeply appreciate your understanding in this matter. Thank you. - ERHARDT
__________________

 

[BrettM]

if she pointed it at a cop it would be legal to take it away, would it not? the video doesn't show what happened right before the cop took her down, but she very well may have repositioned her hand and raised it.

 

[5-90]

Yeah - like most cops these days need hi-caps and select-fire carbines and rifles. Come on - I wouldn't trust most of these guys with a spud gun. I'll trust most armed civilians long before I'll trust a cop with a pistol...

5-90

 

[Dvipercop]

As I said before, I can't (and I won't) judge the officer on his actions towards that woman because I was not personally there to witness exactly what happened. It's simple for all of us to sit here and armchair quarterback the decisions currently being made in NO. It's a whole different story to actually be in the thick of it all when you don't know who is waiting for you to turn your back for a second so they can get a clear shot at you. And like I said before also, this is an all around crappy situation. I can guarantee that no officer over there is enjoying taking people from their homes. It's a crappy job, but someone, somewhere, has to step up and do it. And while I don't agree with everything being done over there either, I thank God that there are people in this world that are willing to do what has to be done. Even in the face of extreme criticism from people sitting comfortably in their homes thousands of miles away.

 

[Weasel]

I don't think they are legal in removing the weapons. From what I'm been reading I belive the order was issued by the mayor? He doesn't have the power to enforce that.

As for Sig...the arn't really srambling yet, they have plenty of mags avalible from the factory and just trying to get more fo the assualt rifle avalible.

 

[Ramsey]

When a gun is involved, it becomes a whole different story. Granted she didn't appear to be threatning with it, but since I wasn't there at the time, I can't judge on the officers response. All an officer wants to do is go home at the end of the day. I'm a strong believer in the "Better safe than sorry" approach, especially when it comes to my life.

the woman had a gun and she was resisting. i think there is nothing at all wrong with that. if it had been my grandmother(who would probably do the same thing) i would be pissed of course. From the cops point of view, I think it reasonable.

 

[5-90]

Explain?

Why do people who are not in immediate danger have to be removed from their homes? Do that, and there's a good chance there won't be a home to come back to (or what there is won't be much.)

People who are not in immediate danger, or who are in circumstances over which they have at least a modicum of control, do not need to be removed, and attempting to do so is an unnecessary diversion of manpower and resources from situations that exist (I'm quite sure) that require handling.

Moreover, what happened to discretion? Tell higher-higher that the actions they want you to take in some places are unnecessary, and that manpower for those actions woud be better used elsewhere. If you don't have the wherewithal to reasonably question a potentially unreasonable decision from higher-higher, you really should find a different line of work. With authority comes responsibility - and that primary responsibility is to make sure that authority is used properly and with discretion.

So, it's a "crappy job," but I don't see why "someone has to step up and do it." I've done a lot of crappy jobs, but I've also not done crappy jobs because they weren't necessary, weren't lawful, or were a waste of resources needed elsewhere. As a non-com, I had the authority to do a great many things, but I had the responsibility to make sure I wasn't causing any unnecessary trouble, and that I wasn't giving any unlawful orders. I also did not encourage blind obedience - I needed men who could think on their feet - either when I neeed to be questioned (rare, but necessary) or when I hadn't given orders to cover that particular situation.

Higher-higher has forgotten that, and they're going to pay for it if and when the rank and file decides they're tired of being hated (whether it's for their own decisions or for carrying out decisions they well knew shouldn't have been.)

5-90

 

[8Mud]

As I said before, I can't (and I won't) judge the officer on his actions towards that woman because I was not personally there to witness exactly what happened. It's simple for all of us to sit here and armchair quarterback the decisions currently being made in NO. It's a whole different story to actually be in the thick of it all when you don't know who is waiting for you to turn your back for a second so they can get a clear shot at you. And like I said before also, this is an all around crappy situation. I can guarantee that no officer over there is enjoying taking people from their homes. It's a crappy job, but someone, somewhere, has to step up and do it. And while I don't agree with everything being done over there either, I thank God that there are people in this world that are willing to do what has to be done. Even in the face of extreme criticism from people sitting comfortably in their homes thousands of miles away.

I´ll tell you what a cop doesn't understand, is a citizen saying "NO", gets there testosterone cooking. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
They probably want everybody out, so the city is easier to police. Fewer people, fewer problems, sure don´t want to interrupt the dough nut break to answer unnecessary calls. Too hard to separate the thugs from the citizens, so lets just move them all out.
A non confrontational approach, is just too much trouble and takes too darned long. Thump em, cuff em and throw them in the can, then they are somebody else's problem.
The politicians are probably seeing dollar signs and opprotunity in the situation.
Why do I feel qualified to critisize, because on a smaller scale, I´ve seen it all before. If it feels like chit, smells like chit and tastes like chit, it most likely is chit.

 

[8Mud]

Just as a sidebar, does anybody have the slightest idea what the keystone cops look like on international television. That 250 pound dough nut eater jumping on that 80 Lb. woman, lowered Americas image to all time lows.
Does anybody in America actually care what the world thinks, probably not, heck you are the most powerful nation on earth. Two things wrong with that philosophy, your outnumbered about 100 to one at least and two, everybody may be afraid of you, but they sure as heck are loosing all respect for you.
If that cop worked for me, I´d have him changing bed pans, in an old peoples home for the rest of his life.

 

[OT]

Just as a sidebar, does anybody have the slightest idea what the keystone cops look like on international television. That 250 pound dough nut eater jumping on that 80 Lb. woman, lowered Americas image to all time lows.
Does anybody in America actually care what the world thinks, probably not, heck you are the most powerful nation on earth. Two things wrong with that philosophy, your outnumbered about 100 to one at least and two, everybody may be afraid of you, but they sure as heck are loosing all respect for you.
If that cop worked for me, I´d have him changing bed pans, in an old peoples home for the rest of his life.

Will you do me a favor and apologize to everybody for me?