GM halts production on the Chevy Volt

[zr2toxj]

When I first heard about the Volt, I pictured car, electric powered, with a small gen set and a big battery. What ended up on the showroom floor is a Prius with a plug-in option.

The Volt is an electric drive with a gas powered genset. Once the battery is depleted the genset kicks in and charges the battery, but is never gas driven though.

 

[bjoehandley]

The Volt is an electric drive with a gas powered genset. Once the battery is depleted the genset kicks in and charges the battery, but is never gas driven though.

IIRC, the engine can directly operated the front tires too if absolutely needed. I have read somewhere that GM's got a Li cut off that only allows for half of the discharge rate, voltage, and amperage to be used before the engine kicks in to try and prolong battery life. I'm hoping that they, as well as the other plug and full electric manufactureres have found a way to reprogram the ESC and charger as battery tech improves as new styles of batteries become available so that the car can safely use the new ones with out issues you could run across trying to charge RC batteries with the wrong chargers.

 

[tbburg]

They had the charging problem with the EV-1 too. When the switched between lead-acid and lithium-Ion, the new packs could be retrofitted to the older cars, but the quick charger that came with the earlier models couldn't be used with the new pack.

The Volt is an electric drive with a gas powered genset. Once the battery is depleted the genset kicks in and charges the battery, but is never gas driven though.

That's what the marketing department said before the car came out. Like most marketing, it was,.. shall we say,.. a lie. Turns out the Volt has what could be termed an electric-electric/gas hybrid drivetrain.
The difference between the Volt and a Prius:
A Prius has a gasoline motor clutched to an electric motor that spins the transmission. The electric motor does triple duty as a primary motor, a starter motor for the gasoline engine, and as an alternator/generator to charge the battery. It can also act as a generator during regenerative braking. It can run in "battery/electric" when the bat is charged, but has no external charge port, so the engine has to run to charge the bat.

A Volt has a gasoline motor clutched to an electric motor(we'll call this M-2), clutched to another electric motor(M-1) that spins the transmission. M-1 acts as the primary motor for the car. It can also act as a generator during regenerative braking. This would be "battery/electric" mode. M-2 acts as a secondary motor(It can engage the primary motor and help accelerate the car) It can also act as a generator, while clutched to the gasoline engine(and disconnected from M-1) This is the "genset/elec drive" mode. The gasoline motor can also drive the car, by engaging electric clutches through both electric motors, directly to the transmission. This would be "standard hybrid" mode. The car chooses which mode to be in on its own. Also, the Volt has a built in charger you can connect to charge the battery when it's parked near an outlet.

 

[Darky]

I was told last year in August by the demo guy that the Volt's gas engine cannot be used to drive the car; it is solely there the recharge the batteries as they run out. He said the batteries run from 20% depleted to 80% charged.

I kind of envied these people their jobs. Their job was to know everything about the car they're assigned to and then travel from show to show telling people about it. The guy I talked to was from MA.

All I'm saying is that while the MSRP on a couple of the Vette's we had at the lot started around $50k, they generally were optioned to $55k, and then "market adjusted" to $60k+...which I thought to be a real shame. Half of the Vette's appeal is $100k car performance for half price. It's what makes the magazines forgive them for apparently crappy seats. Which, I didn't mind the seats when I checked them out.

 

[zr2toxj]

Calling it a lie is a little extreme because in most circumstances it will run on electric for up to 40 miles, then the gen-set kicks in and charges the batteries and continue on electric drive. Here's some comments from the lead engineer, Farah:

• Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. "The Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get full performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery is depleted," he said.
• The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, a small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up to two of those three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive the vehicle.
• Only the large electric motor is capable of moving the car forward on its own. The small electric motor/generator and the gas engine can only ever be combined with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels.
• Even when the gas engine is on and partially driving the wheels, it cannot operate without electricity flowing to one of the other motors.
• The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels.
• There is no "direct" mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors.
• Motor Trend's reporting that the magic cutoff speed of 70 mph is what the car uses to determine whether or not to make the engine to partially drive the wheels is incorrect. The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power. There is no hard cutoff point.

 

[bjoehandley]

Figures MT would screw something up on a domestic car's article, that's who had me thinking that they could lock the engine to the trans and directly drive the front wheels! Thanks for the clarification ZR2!

 

[zr2toxj]

Well, admittedly it is picking nits. But the end results is that my Dad has driven his through the winter and still averages well over 100mpg. Before he bought it, I was in Michigan and met one of the engineers. I told her he was considering it, and she handed me her business card and said have him call. They corresponded many times and still do. I was impressed with that.

 

[AIbandit]

Can we please stop letting our gov stick its D$#k in everything.


http://www.thenewamerican.com/econo.../10295-each-chevy-volt-costs-taxpayers-250000

 

[Ghost]

I don't understand the lack of research and move to Hydrogen power. I would assume lack of refill infrastructure.

 

[XJEEPER]

As noted by Michigan State Representative Tom McMillan:

"It just goes to show there are certain folks [in Washington and Lansing] who will spend anything to get their vision of what people should do. It’s a glaring example of the failure of central planning trying to force citizens to purchase something they may not want…. They should let the free market make those decisions."

Manufacturing taxpayer subsidized autos at $250,000 per unit that the taxpayers dont even want to own is a perfect example of Socialism in action.

 

[souske]

Well at $250k for the taxpayer, and a 40k sticker price, why not subsidize tesla?
I would gladly rock one of those for 10k

 

[tbburg]

I don't understand the lack of research and move to Hydrogen power. I would assume lack of refill infrastructure.

There's a pretty big safety issue with hydrogen. Until they can get to the "common everyday idiot can't screw this up" technology, Hydrogen is a non-starter. Imagine: Common, everyday refueling, done wrong, results in an explosion and fireball. Try to insure that. As much as we hate gasoline, at least it's relatively safe to handle.

Well at $250k for the taxpayer, and a 40k sticker price, why not subsidize tesla?
I would gladly rock one of those for 10k

Speaking of Tesla, anybody else hear about the 40K, un-insurable, non-warranty, brickable battery in the Tesla roadster?

 

[Darky]

Can we please stop letting our gov stick its D$#k in everything.


http://www.thenewamerican.com/econo.../10295-each-chevy-volt-costs-taxpayers-250000

As noted by Michigan State Representative Tom McMillan:

"It just goes to show there are certain folks [in Washington and Lansing] who will spend anything to get their vision of what people should do. It’s a glaring example of the failure of central planning trying to force citizens to purchase something they may not want…. They should let the free market make those decisions."

Manufacturing taxpayer subsidized autos at $250,000 per unit that the taxpayers dont even want to own is a perfect example of Socialism in action.

The real question is, how much of that is special money that only the Volt gets and how much is money that any domestic "alternative energy" car would get? Does Tesla receive any subsidies? What about any of the hydrogen powered vehicles that have been made? I know Honda and BMW at least have produced a few hydrogen cars and supplied them to certain people for testing.

 

[Vanimal]

electric vehicles are pretty cool, i had the privaledge to drive a ford ranger that was converted by a customer of mine who owns an electric vehicle conversion company. The thing had gobs of torque and was way faster than the gas motor, even with the extra 700lbs or so of batteries (total guess, but the ranger weighed almost 4000lbs even). It's his test vehicle, he beats the living crap out of it and drives it as his daily driver. he averages 40 or so miles a day, not sure what the thing will do on a full charge. if not for the cost (which most people seem to be saying), i would definitely build one. I was seriously considering it when my saturn's motor went.

 

[Lurch]

Just saw one of these parked on the street in downtown LA on my lunch break:

http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/en-us

I don't know anything about the performance, but damn that is a nice looking ride.

 

[slvmart]

I believe you are talking about Michael Crichton, not Chricton. He was a good author.

Pardon my dyslexic fingers. And yes, Crichton was a very good author and very prophetic.

And to say 50mpg is 50mpg, is really not true. 50 mpg for a $20K car is not the same as 50 mpg for a nearly $30K car (a Prius). The ROI is obviously much longer for the $30K car. And that assumes that the Prius is really getting 50 mpg the way that they are being driven by taxi drivers. Even Toyota only claims 44 mpg city and 40 hwy. I would suggest that the 40 hwy is probably more appropriate for those being used in the city on all gas power. If you want a true 50 mpg then go out an buy a 1997 VW Passat TDI, like I used to have. That pretty much didn't care where it was and it was always near or in excess of 50mpg. And it sure didn't cost $24K like a base Prius. Drove to the Smokeys from SW Michigan and still had fuel to burn to drive around, once there. And I didn't have to stop and charge batteries. Of course, today, the fuel mileage for a VW TDI, is significantly worse because the EPA mandate afterburners on diesels and VW has upped the Horsepower of the engine about 40HP, in a quest for performance. Which I understand that they have achieved.

Perhaps people are more accepting of hybird and electric vehicles. But this is likely because no more viable alternative has been allowed to compete, to date, in the US.

If you follow all the taxpayer money that has been invested in the so called "Green Energy" projects supported by the Obama administration, then only conclusion one can draw is that if the Obama administration decides to invest, our tax money, in a project. Don't follow suit and run the other way. It is bound to be a failure.

 

[WebDog]

The thing I don't like the most about electric cars is the battery, it will last what 5 - 10 years and then need replacing. How much will that cost? In a tesla it is almost $40k to replace.

Where are the old batteries going are they being properly recycled?

What about the environmental damage caused from mining the materials for the batteries? http://onemansblog.com/2007/03/27/prius-outdoes-hummer-in-environmental-damage/

I probably won't be sold on a battery powered car for a long time, I would love to see a CNG or even more Hydrogen cars. I test drove one of the hydrogen cars and it was very nice.

 

[ehall]

What i dont understand, is why certain people are cheering at the failure of electric cars.

Less of cheering for that and more of an I-told-you-so moment. Central planning failed again. Those stupid Americans buying all those cars with engines that run on cheap readily-available gasoline that would be even cheaper and more readily-available if we actually did more drilling here. No, our lords and masters will give us coal-powered cars instead, while they jack up the price on all fuel sources.

What kind of moron didn't see this coming?

 

[Darky]

Pardon my dyslexic fingers. And yes, Crichton was a very good author and very prophetic.

And to say 50mpg is 50mpg, is really not true. 50 mpg for a $20K car is not the same as 50 mpg for a nearly $30K car (a Prius). The ROI is obviously much longer for the $30K car. And that assumes that the Prius is really getting 50 mpg the way that they are being driven by taxi drivers. Even Toyota only claims 44 mpg city and 40 hwy. I would suggest that the 40 hwy is probably more appropriate for those being used in the city on all gas power. If you want a true 50 mpg then go out an buy a 1997 VW Passat TDI, like I used to have. That pretty much didn't care where it was and it was always near or in excess of 50mpg. And it sure didn't cost $24K like a base Prius. Drove to the Smokeys from SW Michigan and still had fuel to burn to drive around, once there. And I didn't have to stop and charge batteries. Of course, today, the fuel mileage for a VW TDI, is significantly worse because the EPA mandate afterburners on diesels and VW has upped the Horsepower of the engine about 40HP, in a quest for performance. Which I understand that they have achieved.

Perhaps people are more accepting of hybird and electric vehicles. But this is likely because no more viable alternative has been allowed to compete, to date, in the US.

If you follow all the taxpayer money that has been invested in the so called "Green Energy" projects supported by the Obama administration, then only conclusion one can draw is that if the Obama administration decides to invest, our tax money, in a project. Don't follow suit and run the other way. It is bound to be a failure.

What do most cabbies drive? Usually a Crown Vic or a minivan around here. A Crown Vic is no $20k car, neither is a minivan. They run similar or higher pricetags in comparison to a Prius. And if you follow the number of miles a cab can accrue in a busy market like San Fran or NYC, getting better than double the mileage will give a very fast ROI. 50 mpg, is indeed 50 mpg. If a person is looking at $30k vehicles, they're not likely to go and look at a 15 yr old VW TDI. My uncle spent somewhere right around 18-22 or so for his Prius, like I said, he bought it used. Driving Phoenix, Az to 29 Palms, CA on one tank, he averaged 50 mpg. That included navigating Phoenix traffic (which sucks), most likely getting caught in a traffic jam on the 10 through Phoenix, and then the highway driving itself.

As far as what numbers are claimed for a Prius, the last published numbers I saw were 54 city, 48 highway, +/- 1 or 2 mpg. A cab will see the same city mileage as any other driver, in a Prius at least. When not moving, the engine shuts down except to run the A/C or stereo if the batteries are dead. In my uncle's we got all the way to 40ish before the engine kicked in while being easy on the gas pedal.

EDIT: Looking up the actual numbers from the EPA (which are the numbers posted on the cars and advertised by the mfrs), you chose to quote the numbers from the Prius V, their new minivanish variant. The stardard Prius is still rated at 51/48, with the compact model at 53/46. Also, the high end MSRP on all three is still under 30k. Comparing them to the most common cab, the Crown Vic, city mileage is better than 3x what a Crown Vic gets while the Vic's MSRP starts where the Prius tops out. If you want to debate easily verified info, at least try harder to distort it...

 

[Milford Cubicle II]

What do most cabbies drive? Usually a Crown Vic or a minivan around here. A Crown Vic is no $20k car, neither is a minivan.

You're right, most cabbies probably pay less than $10k for an ex police cruiser from an auction.

Good luck with saving $20k in gas with a prius.