Chem minds... Info on Ammonia

[xjwisconsin]

Hey folks,

Any chem minded guys out there I could use some information on ammonia... My daughter is a year old and my wife and I cloth diaper (not the rags our parents used) anyhow it appears our diapers are holding in ammonia and causing some suck burns to occur to our daughters bottom. I don't have alot of faith in info that i have found so im trying to figure out how and why the ammonia is building up in the fabric and not being washed out by detergent... Any information as to how to neutralize ect would be appreciated.

thanks from a worried dad who failed chemistry.:read:

 

[larsen]

Hey folks,

Any chem minded guys out there I could use some information on ammonia... My daughter is a year old and my wife and I cloth diaper (not the rags our parents used) anyhow it appears our diapers are holding in ammonia and causing some suck burns to occur to our daughters bottom. I don't have alot of faith in info that i have found so im trying to figure out how and why the ammonia is building up in the fabric and not being washed out by detergent... Any information as to how to neutralize ect would be appreciated.

thanks from a worried dad who failed chemistry.:read:

Sounds more like home-ec than chemistry. Ammonia is unlikely to be the problem. The cause is more likely bleach or detergent used to excess and persisting in the finished laundry. Figure out the minimum amount of chemicals then try washing twice; use only water for the second wash. Separate everything after the first wash so it's not wadded up at the start of the second wash. Keep the affected skin clean (watch the soap) and dry and exposed to air as best possible. Good luck!

 

[xjwisconsin]

The missus does this laundry thing on the diapers, but she never uses bleach, as it can damage the shells of the diapers. After going around and around about it last night Im thinking that she hasn't been washing enough, and a combination of harder water and lower detergent is allowing the ammonia solids(not the right term I know) to remain in the pad parts of the diapers.
We have tried vinegar to try and break the ammonia once before but then everything reeked of vinegar. Im thinking of getting some citric acid (for home preserves ect) and trying that to bring the base of the ammonia up to neutral?

 

[larsen]

The missus does this laundry thing on the diapers, but she never uses bleach, as it can damage the shells of the diapers. After going around and around about it last night Im thinking that she hasn't been washing enough, and a combination of harder water and lower detergent is allowing the ammonia solids(not the right term I know) to remain in the pad parts of the diapers.
We have tried vinegar to try and break the ammonia once before but then everything reeked of vinegar. Im thinking of getting some citric acid (for home preserves ect) and trying that to bring the base of the ammonia up to neutral?

Shells? If they're coated on one side it doesn't surprise me that they're difficult to clean. More chemicals probably wont solve the problem.

 

[1985xjlaredo]

What leads you to believe that they are "holding" ammonia in the fabric. What are you using to wash them with?

 

[CherBear]

Ammonia is moderately basic, vinegar is acidic, which is why it gets rid of the ammonia smell. And as you said in your post, detergent (also basic) does not remove it. It sounds like the irritation your daughter is having is very mild chemical burn. I would just tell you to switch to normal diapers, but I already know I am not going to change your mind.
I would recommend making a solution of water and lime juice, or other citrus juice. Then let the diapers soak in that for a while. That should neutralize any of the excess ammonia building up in the fabric and hopefully solve your problems without making your whole house smell like vinegar. Good luck!

 

[xjwisconsin]

The fabric that the shells are made out of is called PUL fabric...

"PUL, otherwise known as polyurethane laminated fabric, is a lot more technical than just a plastic backing on fabric. The original application is the medical field, and it is still used for this purpose. Like cloth diapers, it is used to replace disposable products with reusable. It provides the waterproof barrier needed in the medical field that can survive multiple institutional washings. The laminate can also be autoclaved, which is a very high heat steam sterilization process, to make it safe for reuse even after it comes into contact with blood or other bodily fluids."

Along the lines of most higher end jacket material, it is waterproof yet breathable. It is not the shells that are causing the problems, rather the inserts or "pads" that soak up the urine. It seems from my research that they are not coming completley clean when we wash them. This appears (from my rudimentary chem knowledge) to be leaving the dry ammonia residue in the pads. When then urinated on (sorry if this is getting gross) the moisture of the uric acid in the urin reacts with the left behind uric salt to create a higher content and that is what is causing the burning.
This can occur in all diapering situations, not only cloth diapering... It can be one of the causes of diaper rash.
As far as the why and what of the cloth, generally they work the same as disposable diapers, cost half as much money in the long run, and our garbage output has gone from 5 bags a week to 1. Thats a lot less crap going into the landfill.

CherBear, thanks for the info, that is along with what I was thinking.

Just trying to figure this out from a knowlege based rationale than a gut feeling type info that I have seen on the web.

 

[djwright4341]

We washed cloth diapers in Borax and never had any problems. Diapers never smelled and stayed white the whole time. Lots cheaper than regular detergent too.

 

[xjsnake]

We washed cloth diapers in Borax and never had any problems. Diapers never smelled and stayed white the whole time. Lots cheaper than regular detergent too.

This would be a good option to try.

 

[xjwisconsin]

Im going to have to check with the missus. I think she tried borax at one point, but im not sure. Thanks for the info guys.
Still hoping one of you could give me a quick chemistry lesson in ammonia and all its glory. I would like to be able to more wholely wrap my brain around the workings of something I know very little about.
Oh and for those of us with pets, perhaps some of this info may become beneficial.

 

[1985xjlaredo]

I dont know exactly what you want as in a lesson on ammonia? But here is the correct Lewis Structure for it.

I also know that its critical auto ignition temperature is 650° C
I can give you more info but I dont know that it is going to help in your situation. I would soak the things in a solution of 90% water and 10% Lemon juice for about 15 minutes then wash them. And still what are you using to wash them with?

 

[xjwisconsin]

Washing is usually tide free and clear. I believe she runs a load cold cold no detergent, followed by a hot hot with detergent, then two rinse cycles. We cranked the water heater up the other night to max and ran several washes of just straight hot water. Also added some Lemon juice. The hot water mixed with the acidity should be enough to pull the pads clean.
85xjlaredo, I tend to overthink things. When it comes to our children I tend to err on the over informed side. I figured if I could learn how and why ammonia is made I could help to diffuse the situation, but am finding that perhaps I am being a bit OCD.

 

[Ecomike]

Hey folks,

Any chem minded guys out there I could use some information on ammonia... My daughter is a year old and my wife and I cloth diaper (not the rags our parents used) anyhow it appears our diapers are holding in ammonia and causing some suck burns to occur to our daughters bottom. I don't have alot of faith in info that i have found so im trying to figure out how and why the ammonia is building up in the fabric and not being washed out by detergent... Any information as to how to neutralize ect would be appreciated.

thanks from a worried dad who failed chemistry.:read:

Not sure where you got that info, but I seriously doubt the problem is ammonia left in the washed diapers. The ammonia source (if the problem even is ammonia?) is most likely your daughter. In which case the best, and only good solution I ever found was a white color, zinc based ointment for diaper rash. Especially for over night use, and to use when she has any rash of any kind. It worked fast, and make everything else I ever tried look like junk.

I suspect the rash problem may be worse with cotton diapers, as the disposable diapers have a high molecular weight polymer absorbent that absorbs about 20-40 times as much liquid as a cotton diaper keeping the kids dryer, longer, thus reducing the chance of getting a rash if the diapers are not changed right away.

 

[Ecomike]

The fabric that the shells are made out of is called PUL fabric...

"PUL, otherwise known as polyurethane laminated fabric, is a lot more technical than just a plastic backing on fabric. The original application is the medical field, and it is still used for this purpose. Like cloth diapers, it is used to replace disposable products with reusable. It provides the waterproof barrier needed in the medical field that can survive multiple institutional washings. The laminate can also be autoclaved, which is a very high heat steam sterilization process, to make it safe for reuse even after it comes into contact with blood or other bodily fluids."

Along the lines of most higher end jacket material, it is waterproof yet breathable. It is not the shells that are causing the problems, rather the inserts or "pads" that soak up the urine. It seems from my research that they are not coming completley clean when we wash them. This appears (from my rudimentary chem knowledge) to be leaving the dry ammonia residue in the pads. When then urinated on (sorry if this is getting gross) the moisture of the uric acid in the urin reacts with the left behind uric salt to create a higher content and that is what is causing the burning.
This can occur in all diapering situations, not only cloth diapering... It can be one of the causes of diaper rash.
As far as the why and what of the cloth, generally they work the same as disposable diapers, cost half as much money in the long run, and our garbage output has gone from 5 bags a week to 1. Thats a lot less crap going into the landfill.

CherBear, thanks for the info, that is along with what I was thinking.

Just trying to figure this out from a knowlege based rationale than a gut feeling type info that I have seen on the web.

What diapers are you using? Do you have a link to detailed info on them, and what they are made of? I assumed, reading your first post, you were using cotton diapers. Reading what you posted above, gives me serious doubts about their re-usability, and wash-ability???

 

[Ecomike]

Also added some Lemon juice. The hot water mixed with the acidity should be enough to pull the pads clean.

What makes you think that will get them clean?

What makes you think ammonia is the problem?

 

[H8PVMT]

My sister has the same issue, she now uses the biodegradable (hippie) inserts that break down fast and composts them, I can get the brand if you want, they are small and go in the cloth

 

[H8PVMT]

Also use liberal amounts of Boudreaux butt paste, works like magic, got her kids sores to go away in a few days, and they were stomach turning bad

 

[xjwisconsin]

H8PVMNT: We use the Boudreaux paste, and yes it does work awesome thanks.
Ecomike: You are correct, I am not refering to the old school cotton cloth type diapers, these are sewn diapers that look much like disposeables. They are however made in several different varieties, with several different fabric types. The ones that we are using at this point are a PUL fabric shell with a microfiber inside. Inbetween the shell and the microfiber is a pocket to stuff the "pads" some of our pads are cotton and some are hemp, I think a few are microfiber/cotton/hemp combined. There are a plethora of comercial companies as well as smaller at home companies that make them these days (Fuzzybunz, Grovia, Gbaby, honestly my wife handles this end of the world). From my interwebs lurking I really do believe that a buildup of somekind (I feel ammonia) has been causing these burns. Up until now we have not been having any problems, so I assume that we have just hit that point where the fabric was building up a storeage of said contaminant. The problem that i have found however is that with the modern onset of disposable diapers this "oldentime" problem of burns is rarely seen these days.

 

[Ecomike]

I did some reading after my last post, and got some what up to speed on the changes since I used diapers (been about 17 years now). We had a few cases of severe diaper rash, even with out reusing diapers as I recall. And most were in my opinion from the kids drinking too much juice, and sugary junk, and not enough water and then sleeping all night in a wet diaper where the urine converted to ammonia over night.

But from what I read today, it sounds like some of the synthetic stuff you all are trying to reuse is designed to trap and hold the bad stuff, and that bad stuff is held more tightly than the washing process you are using can deal with, and thus may be building up in the synthetic adsorbent fibers.

Note that there is a chemical difference between adsorbents and absorbents, and a large difference in reversibility, clean ability, or regenerability of the materials and their original properties.

Ammonia is water soluble in basic pH water, but if the pH of the water drops, the ammonia solubility drops and the ammonia tends to gas off. But an adsorbent that has adsorbed ammonia will react differently when washed than a cloth absorbent. Adsorption is a stronger bond than absorption (typically).

I gotta run for now, I will post more on this tomorrow when I get a chance.

But think about this. Is it possible that you have been spoiled by what high tech diaper materials can do, and that when they get irreversibly saturated, that the problem may not be an ammonia release from the diaper, but the diapers failure to capture and hold the kids urine all night long like it did when it was newer? From what I have read, the urine turns into ammonia after several hours!!!!

 

[Wayne Sihler]

A quarter century ago.... last of 3 kids was still in diapers, Wife used plain old cotton diapers... with a plastic over-diaper, of some type,to contain leaks.
The diaper pail would REEK of ammonia,when emptied to wash.
IIRC the wash was "Dreft"detergent or Ivory Snow,Baking soda,and Clorox.