Cheap Performance Headers--RT Offroad? ATP?

[GraniteCow]

I'm building a stroker and want to increase the power as cost-effectively as possible. I'm only building it because the Jeep can't make it up some of the sandy hills I need to climb. It sounds like porting the head and installing a header will make a noticeable difference with the increased displacement, and isn't all that expensive...except a Banks Torque Tube is $500. RT Offroad (Crown?) has a header that looks like a direct copy of the Banks but it's $300. APN has a header of a different design that's even cheaper at $200. I'm not seeing many reviews on the RT Offroad (RT36002), but the ATP 101212 has terrible reviews pretty much everywhere. People say they need to hammer down the #6 tube to fit (constricting it) and the collectors cracks after a few uses, even with a flex pipe. How does the RT header hold up? Is it a better header than the ATP?

 

[RCP Phx]

That's kind of a oxymoron statement! Cheaper is cheaper for a reason. Btw way you would want a Banks Revolver header!

 

[RCP Phx]

Btw, my Revolver is 7yrs old now with no signs of a problem.

 

[dktool]

Do you have the 2000 style intake manifold ? That helps.

 

[GraniteCow]

Do you have the 2000 style intake manifold ? That helps.

It's a 1996

 

[GraniteCow]

That's kind of a oxymoron statement! Cheaper is cheaper for a reason. Btw way you would want a Banks Revolver header!

You're right, it is the Revolver! $500 seems high for a single header though, and so much of my money is going to other things that I really need to cut costs where I can. If a $300 header does what it needs to, and $300 sounds reasonable to me for a quality header, I'm all for it. If the difference between Banks and RT is 5HP at 5k rpm, I'm cool with that. If the difference is 20HP at 3k rpm and it falls apart after 2 months, then it sounds like Banks is the way to go...or maybe just my cheapo stock replacement that it's in there now, depending on how much power a header actually adds.

 

[GraniteCow]

Do you have the 2000 style intake manifold ? That helps.

My bad, the intake manifold is a 2000. The Jeep is a 1996.

 

[RCP Phx]

I don't know any numbers but builders like Russ do and recommend the Revolver!

 

[Anak]

That's kind of a oxymoron statement! Cheaper is cheaper for a reason. Btw way you would want a Banks Revolver header!

This^^^

Headers were my industry. You get what you pay for.

First issue you will have is whether or not they fit. Bending tubing is half art. Sure, you can buy a CNC mandrel bender, but just because you programed it to perform a certain way in the morning does not mean it will be producing the same result that afternoon. As materials and hydraulic fluids warm up things start to drift. You deal with this through quality control, but QC is expensive. All the time spent checking things is time not spent producing things.

Next issue is whether or not they seal. At one end of the spectrum are companies that machine their flanges after assembly/welding. At the other end are those who just hit them with grinder, free-hand. Guess which one costs more? Hint: Fixturing a header to support it in a mill is not exactly convenient.

In the long run you will have a durability issue. The quality of materials used and certain elements of the design itself will contribute to the lifespan of the header. Stainless costs substantially more, both as a raw material and as a material to work with (higher pressures required for clamping results in greater wear on the tooling (especially the wiper die) and higher rates of spring-back results in more waste). A higher end header design may require fabricated tubes (welded joints because bends are too close together to be able to clamp the tubing to make the second bend) where a cheap design will preclude fabricated tubes. But the fabricated tubes may be what is necessary to have proper clearances. By going cheap by design you end up with potential interference issues which will eventually destroy the header.

Those are the low hanging fruit in this picture. I could bore you with pages of issues and examples.

I run a Borla system which is out of production. The Banks Revolver is what I would buy if I were in the market right now.

 

[GraniteCow]

I don't know any numbers but builders like Russ do and recommend the Revolver!

I'm not doubting that the Revolver is a good header, just wondering if it's worth the price difference over the more recent competitors. Russ only recommends the best, but from where I stand, the best usually comes with diminishing returns, and 2nd or 3rd best is usually pretty darn close but a lot cheaper. I have more important pots on the stove, so to speak, which is why I'm looking into my options. Gotta replace my roof and fix my Tacoma that a drunk driver hit, among other things.

From a manufacturing standpoint, it's totally possible to build a comparable header for the price of the RT, so the question is if they do build a comparable header or just build garbage and overcharge for it. It sounds like the ATP is junk, but here on they used to recommend an APN header that was the same price. It looks like that company either rebranded or went under...not sure if it's the same as the ATP, since the ATP has pretty bad reviews elsewhere.

 

[GraniteCow]

This^^^

Headers were my industry. You get what you pay for.

First issue you will have is whether or not they fit. Bending tubing is half art. Sure, you can buy a CNC mandrel bender, but just because you programed it to perform a certain way in the morning does not mean it will be producing the same result that afternoon. As materials and hydraulic fluids warm up things start to drift. You deal with this through quality control, but QC is expensive. All the time spent checking things is time not spent producing things.

Next issue is whether or not they seal. At one end of the spectrum are companies that machine their flanges after assembly/welding. At the other end are those who just hit them with grinder, free-hand. Guess which one costs more? Hint: Fixturing a header to support it in a mill is not exactly convenient.

In the long run you will have a durability issue. The quality of materials used and certain elements of the design itself will contribute to the lifespan of the header. Stainless costs substantially more, both as a raw material and as a material to work with (higher pressures required for clamping results in greater wear on the tooling (especially the wiper die) and higher rates of spring-back results in more waste). A higher end header design may require fabricated tubes (welded joints because bends are too close together to be able to clamp the tubing to make the second bend) where a cheap design will preclude fabricated tubes. But the fabricated tubes may be what is necessary to have proper clearances. By going cheap by design you end up with potential interference issues which will eventually destroy the header.

Those are the low hanging fruit in this picture. I could bore you with pages of issues and examples.

I run a Borla system which is out of production. The Banks Revolver is what I would buy if I were in the market right now.

Do you think a quality stainless header could be built and sold for ~$320? Maybe if it was a copy of Banks? I feel like Banks would have sizeable budgets for marketing and research/testing. The RT honestly doesn't look bad to me, but I've never worked in your industry: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rto-rt36002

On another note, do you think a header would produce a significant power gain on a stroker? As in, close to the 20-30HP that people claim? Maybe if I combined it with porting or at least port matching the head?

 

[Anak]

I don't think you can build a good stainless header for under $500.

You can steal someone else's design and employ slave labor to build it, but I still don't believe you can maintain quality on either the materials or the labor.

 

[RCP Phx]

One big thing you need to watch for is flange thickness as this is critical for good fitment!

 

[GraniteCow]

OK, I might just get the Banks