Another automaker going in the wrong direction!

[75SV1]

I looked at the Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) setup about a year ago. I saw one on E-Bay and placed a bid on it. It went for about $250. The setup was for a Jeep Cherokee and dual fuel. If I remember correctly gas was at $1.85/gal and the CNG was at $1.35/gal. With CNG, you lose a bit of performance ( at least 10%) and some fuel milage. Still, I figured cost and I'd have to run 15K miles to save about $200. There are only 2 public CNG filling stations in Indianapolis which is an hour away. I think the cost of a new CNG setup would be $1500-3000. I think the cost of the CGN refill station is about $800-1500. The $38/month might be a rental cost. The limited filling stations in the area kind of soured me to the idea. With gas going for $2.10-240/gal, maybe I missed out.
On the BioDiesel and Diesel issue, I think the main factor in the US is usually a Diesel motor cost more. The Cummins is a 5K option. I hear the Jeep diesel dosen't cost to much more than the gas one with the same options. If we paid $4/gal or more like Europe and others, then they look real attractive. Emmissions are also a problem on diesels. All the diesel makers are working on them. 2007 comes the next round of emmissions on Diesel Engines. The newer engine are much quieter, almost gas engine levels. Diesel fuels are costing a bit more due to stricter limits on sulfur content. I think the Europeans have a lower limit on sulfur already. THe lower sulfur diesel will be needed to achieve the next round of emmisions. It also effects what engine can or will be imported. I hear the WVO conversions can be hard on the fuel pump. So thats something to consider. I also hear in warmer climates some get away with running older diesel cars with the stuff without a conversion.
Tom

 

[casm]

On the BioDiesel and Diesel issue, I think the main factor in the US is usually a Diesel motor cost more. The Cummins is a 5K option. I hear the Jeep diesel dosen't cost to much more than the gas one with the same options.

Despite a relatively high adoption rate in Europe for diesel engines in passenger vehicles, they still cost more than their gas-powered counterparts. Check this link for an example (note: I deliberately used Ireland and not the UK for my example as the UK is not using the Euro, thus making a Europe-wide comparison less accurate).

Emmissions are also a problem on diesels. All the diesel makers are working on them. 2007 comes the next round of emmissions on Diesel Engines.

This was figured out about five years ago by PSA (Peugeot-Citroen). Why we can't find this technology here I just don't understand.

I think the Europeans have a lower limit on sulfur already. THe lower sulfur diesel will be needed to achieve the next round of emmisions.

Correct on both counts. FWIW, though, the low-sulphur limits only apply to vehicle fuels, not home heating oils (though they also have lower permissible limits than in the US).

 

[75SV1]

Trust me, the Diesel engine makers are working on those soot filters. Larger engines on the big rigs, the sulfur fuel content, added cost and the milage they will last. I think they have to last about 50K. I hear MB had one on one of their late 80,s car. Don't know how well it worked. The emmission stuff really rocked the Diesel makers in the US for about the last 6 years or more. Part of the problem is the emmission standards is Europe favor diesels, while the emmission standards in the US favor gas motors. Something like NOx vs CO.
Tom

 

[casm]

Trust me, the Diesel engine makers are working on those soot filters.

Understood. My point was that they're already in production, just that we're not getting them for whatever reason here. It just annoys me that we already have a workable technology to deal with the particulate problem, but nobody's using it in the North American market.

Larger engines on the big rigs, the sulfur fuel content, added cost and the milage they will last. I think they have to last about 50K.

That's pretty much exactly the life of the FAP system filter; changing it out and refilling the fuel additive is a 15-minute job. Saw it done on a friend's Peugeot Christmas before last and was amazed at how simple a procedure it was.

Part of the problem is the emmission standards is Europe favor diesels, while the emmission standards in the US favor gas motors. Something like NOx vs CO.

Not exactly... Remember that while there are Europe-wide standards that each country has to conform to, each country can also set its own test limits. Virtually all modern European cars will meet or exceed US emissions standards for gas engines, but the diesel test standards in Europe are stricter than they are here.

As for NOx vs. CO... It's not so much that one standard is favoured over the other, but that the UK now bases part of road tax on the CO emissions of the vehicle. This isn't done by annual testing, but rather the pre-defined class that the vehicle falls into. Note that this is *not* currently a Europe-wide thing as it's presently only implemented in the UK to the best of my knowledge.

 

[75SV1]

Part of it might be that they are serviced at 50K, but EPA emmision controls might have to last longer than that. I think 80K, but I could be mistakend. I don't know how they effect gas milage. In the Semi-Trucks 1/4 mpg is important. CAT really did a number on Cummins spreading BS about how the emmission setup was going to affect the gas milage. Seems CAT is the one who had to go back to the drawing board. Ford and other already have diesels in autos that they sell on both sides of the pond. I think the problem is getting them EPA certified and their projected sales. Then how does the added cost affect those sales. Your Peugeot list about 3K Euros more for a diesel. I think thats roughly $3K USD. For some thats a lot on a smaller car.
Some of the hold up on diesels is the recoupe on cost of manufacturing. It takes about 7 years to recoupe the cost on an engine line. Some of the Automakers don't want to make that commitment. Also, as stated before, the added cost is a large factor.
Tom

 

[casm]

Part of it might be that they are serviced at 50K, but EPA emmision controls might have to last longer than that. I think 80K, but I could be mistakend. I don't know how they effect gas milage.

80K sounds about right. As for affecting fuel economy, there doesn't seem to be any real drop compared to a non-FAP engine. Point taken regarding a quarter of a mile per gallon being a big hit for semis, but we're looking at a system that is essentially designed for passenger vehicles. I'd assume that it could be made to work in heavy-duty applications, but have no idea as to the sorts of reengineering that may be required to do so acceptably.

Ford and other already have diesels in autos that they sell on both sides of the pond. I think the problem is getting them EPA certified and their projected sales.

Believe it or not, the problem isn't so much the EPA as CARB; VW ran into this a couple of years ago when, after having had the Golf, Jetta, and Beetle TDi on sale in California for over a year, CARB moved the goalposts on what they considered to be acceptable emissions for diesels. VW had to withdraw its diesels from the California market, which doubly sucks because they had been designed specifically to be sold in all 50 states.

Then how does the added cost affect those sales. Your Peugeot list about 3K Euros more for a diesel. I think thats roughly $3K USD. For some thats a lot on a smaller car.

Well... OK, before I answer: I specifically chose the Peugeot because it's an Accord/Camry/Taurus-sized car, and deliberately avoided the smaller models that aren't as practical for US conditions. Depending on whose exchange rate you believe, that 3000 Euro difference in price works out at somewhere between $3600 and $3900 at today's numbers. Checking VW's car configurator, a base gas-engined Jetta starts at $17,900 with the base TDi coming in at $21,385 - pretty close to the price difference apparent in Europe. Depending on the mileage and type of driving you're doing, that cost can be recouped within the first two to three years of ownership in fuel and maintenance savings.

Some of the hold up on diesels is the recoupe on cost of manufacturing. It takes about 7 years to recoupe the cost on an engine line. Some of the Automakers don't want to make that commitment. Also, as stated before, the added cost is a large factor.

True, but both are chicken-and-egg scenarios: if the public bought more diesels the unit cost could come down as demand increases, but if the units aren't on the market then they can never achieve their revenue potential for the automakers.

 

[w_howey]

There were quite a few hippies in one of the local BD advocacy groups that I met about a year ago when I first looked into this that actively campaigned for use of hemp seed oil. I'm for any oil crop that isn't an existing commodity controlled by the agro-giants like ADM YET .

Fixed it for you.
If you grow it they will come.