Air Care Colorado FAIL!

Skully

Skully

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Dacono, Co.
All right all you guys/ gals who have had failed emissions testing I need to have your input.

Looking @ my report and it is so silly I wish these required testing would just roll over and die!

................Readings ............... Limits
HC GPM ______.4251 ___________3.0 _________Passed

CP GPM ______ .9513 __________25.00 _______ Passed

CO2 GPM _______504.2443 ________0

NOx GPM _______5.846 __________ 5.00 _______Failed


According to the report I passed everything awesome, except NOx GPM failed by .84 ?

WTF!!!


I have 10 days for free re-test but funds are tight and do not know if I can get it fixed in time.

Anyone run into this with Air Care?

According to the little info on the sheet high NOx GPM is due to high combustion temps

Any thoughts would be appreciated, Thanks!
 
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The EGR helps limit NOX emmisions by introducing exhaust gasses into the combustion chamber and lowering tempatures. Maybe your EGR is clogged or not operating, vacuum hose problem or ?

Then again sometimes they fail badly one time and pass great the next time.
 
87xjco said:
The EGR helps limit NOX emmisions by introducing exhaust gasses into the combustion chamber and lowering tempatures. Maybe your EGR is clogged or not operating, vacuum hose problem or ?

Then again sometimes they fail badly one time and pass great the next time.
Click to expand...

I usually run 92 octane and I just did a tune in the last month with new plugs (bosch platinum) and plug wires. Would running the higher octane fuel raise my combustion temps?

Possibly O2sensor? Sounds like I am running a little lean?

The EGR is suppose to open up at 2000+ rpm correct? If I can translate the charts they gave me I can see where it fail at what RPM.
 
Your NOx readings are pegged so I'd definitely start with checking that the EGR is working when vacuum is applied, then check to ensure the passage for the EGR in the manifold isn't carbon clogged.

The other likelyhood is that the cat is in it's early stages of meltdown/clogging.

Basically, the exh. temps are getting up around 2200-2500 degrees. Lean mixture/burn can cause that, but I'd suspect more of a back pressure issue due to a cat flow problem.
 
YELLAHEEP said:
Your NOx readings are pegged so I'd definitely start with checking that the EGR is working when vacuum is applied, then check to ensure the passage for the EGR in the manifold isn't carbon clogged.

The other likelyhood is that the cat is in it's early stages of meltdown/clogging.

Basically, the exh. temps are getting up around 2200-2500 degrees. Lean mixture/burn can cause that, but I'd suspect more of a back pressure issue due to a cat flow problem.
Click to expand...

Come to think of it I was thinking about my cat couple weeks ago. It looks like it was slapped on right after the dinosaurs went extinct.......

Reason I was thinking of it is my fuel economy has seemed to go down and I get the feeling of a little more loss in power.

Correct me if I am wrong though if it was the cat starting to clog wouldn't it effect my other readings as well? O2 sensor can effect that as well correct?

I will trouble shoot the egr, and look around for cheaper cat prices than the internet $130

Thanks :peace:
 
i had a 96 buick skylark to get me around between the jeep i totaled and the jeep i have now. when i took it in for emissions the nox was huigh too. i took it somewhere a few minutes away that gives a small ammount of diagnostics work for free.

the guy didnt see anything wrong or any reason for the readings to be high. all he did was clean the throttle body and it passed fine.
 
XCastleXJ said:
i had a 96 buick skylark to get me around between the jeep i totaled and the jeep i have now. when i took it in for emissions the nox was huigh too. i took it somewhere a few minutes away that gives a small ammount of diagnostics work for free.

the guy didnt see anything wrong or any reason for the readings to be high. all he did was clean the throttle body and it passed fine.
Click to expand...

I will ultimately play around with the EGR this weekend then take it back next week with in my 10 days to see if that is the case, but now I am thinking I have bigger fish to look into cause once I put all the pieces in place it starts to make sense.

I think they need more than 10 days for a free re-test? That is not a lot of time to troubleshoot and get it back to test. Imagine going to a mechanic to fix and he keeps it for 2-3 days, then you have a weekend in there, your normal life you have to do, etc......

Nothing but a money making setup in my eyes................."Oops so sorry you failed!, come back in 10 days we will look at it again, oops past
10 days, gimmi $25 bucks!" Wankers.................:flamemad:
 
Skully said:
All right all you guys/ gals who have had failed emissions testing I need to have your input.

Looking @ my report and it is so silly I wish these required testing would just roll over and die!

................Readings ............... Limits
HC GPM ______.4251 ___________3.0 _________Passed

CP GPM ______ .9513 __________25.00 _______ Passed

CO2 GPM _______504.2443 ________0

NOx GPM _______5.846 __________ 5.00 _______Failed


According to the report I passed everything awesome, except NOx GPM failed by .84 ?

WTF!!!


I have 10 days for free re-test but funds are tight and do not know if I can get it fixed in time.

Anyone run into this with Air Care?

According to the little info on the sheet high NOx GPM is due to high combustion temps

Any thoughts would be appreciated, Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm assuming it's a 1990 from your sig...

Possible causes of high NOx, all related to elevated combustion temps:
1) Failed/failing EGR. I consider this one suspect, since I had an 87 that was tested with a failed EGR (HC, CO, and NOx were all acceptable. It failed when the "tech" played with thing manually.) Replacement EGR didn't do anything do NOx, but HC and CO skyrocketed (and I had to drop another hundred bucks on a cat...)

2) Failed/failing cat. The thing is divided into two sections, the first section is a "reduction" section that "reduces" the NOx into N2 and O2. The O2 is used in the second "oxidation" section to finish the combustion of HC and CO into H2O and CO2.

3) Excess carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. This has the effect of increasing compression and screwing with ignition timing - both of which can ramp up NOx. I've posted a 'water trick' for getting rid of it before. Also, if you suspect high carbon deposits (possible with the wretched EGR system...) you should disconnect your cat and tie it aside if you're going to clean them out (or you'll wreck your cat, if it isn't already. I'd rather spend four bucks for the gasket than a hundred for a cat any day of the week!)

4) Failed/failing HEGO sensor, reporting a "rich" condition and causing the engine to lean out. Lean fuel/air mix will cause elevated combustion temperatures.

I find the utility of the EGR system highly debatable for us, simply because the AMC six is - and always has been - a relatively low-compression engine. The 199, 232, and 258 all ran compression ratios down around 8.0:1, and the late 242ci doesn't even top 9.0:1, IIRC.
 
5-90 said:
I'm assuming it's a 1990 from your sig...

Possible causes of high NOx, all related to elevated combustion temps:
1) Failed/failing EGR. I consider this one suspect, since I had an 87 that was tested with a failed EGR (HC, CO, and NOx were all acceptable. It failed when the "tech" played with thing manually.) Replacement EGR didn't do anything do NOx, but HC and CO skyrocketed (and I had to drop another hundred bucks on a cat...)

2) Failed/failing cat. The thing is divided into two sections, the first section is a "reduction" section that "reduces" the NOx into N2 and O2. The O2 is used in the second "oxidation" section to finish the combustion of HC and CO into H2O and CO2.

3) Excess carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. This has the effect of increasing compression and screwing with ignition timing - both of which can ramp up NOx. I've posted a 'water trick' for getting rid of it before. Also, if you suspect high carbon deposits (possible with the wretched EGR system...) you should disconnect your cat and tie it aside if you're going to clean them out (or you'll wreck your cat, if it isn't already. I'd rather spend four bucks for the gasket than a hundred for a cat any day of the week!)

4) Failed/failing HEGO sensor, reporting a "rich" condition and causing the engine to lean out. Lean fuel/air mix will cause elevated combustion temperatures.

I find the utility of the EGR system highly debatable for us, simply because the AMC six is - and always has been - a relatively low-compression engine. The 199, 232, and 258 all ran compression ratios down around 8.0:1, and the late 242ci doesn't even top 9.0:1, IIRC.
Click to expand...

Lots of good info but I wonder if my lowered fuel economy combined with my seemless loss of power over time would dictate it not being the HEGO?

The motor lower end is fairly new, it had a complete lower block rebuild about 3-3.5 yeas ago due to a scorched piston from a previous owner. Hopefully it would not have that much carbon build up over that short period of time. I was also think fuel injectors (loss of power high, high combustion temps) as they need to be replaced as well, another "......been on there since the dinosaurs went extinct". :D

A lot could be the culprit, just two years ago on the last emissions test it passed with flying colors other than my fracking gas cap! Makes me wonder what has happened the last two year?
 
Skully said:
I think they need more than 10 days for a free re-test? That is not a lot of time to troubleshoot and get it back to test. Imagine going to a mechanic to fix and he keeps it for 2-3 days, then you have a weekend in there, your normal life you have to do, etc......
Click to expand...
It's 10 BUSINESS days, but Saturday is one of them. :(
 
Hypoid said:
It's 10 BUSINESS days, but Saturday is one of them. :(
Click to expand...

Ya so I have until the 2nd if they count Memorial Day as not one of them.


Here is where I am at so far;

Got home and I am going off my experience with my old 258 (4.2) where the EGR valve was suppose to open at around 2,000 RPM. With me just getting home I pop the hood and throttle the motor up and watch the little rod on the EGR valve. Doesn't move at all, so then I take my screw driver and move it which it moves super freely and the engine stalls. Re-start and do it again resulting in the stalling again. Then I throttle up the motor and open the valve and running good. Okay so crossover tube is clear and free and not clogged.

Next follow the vac lines around this ridiculous routing up to the manifold back around to this funky control thingy on the driver's side of the compartment. Pull the line that is coming from the manifold to it and hear vacuum. I assume this little controller with a 2 plug connector on it is what opens and closes the vac line at the right RPM?

I bypass it directly to the line going to the EGR valve and nothing happens. I go further and hook it directly to the little 2-way thingy right next to the EGR that has a two lines one going to the outside of the EGR and the other to the inside of the EGR. Still no movement. Then I hook it directly to the outside part of the EGR, nothing...................

So I can not see the actual baffle of the EGR as I think I have to remove it as it is facing the inside. I checked around and $100 for a new EGR and has to be ordered............figures. :doh:

Watcha guys think?
 
I'm not convinced it's the EGR valve.

You could also get some super-duper injector cleaner. If you read the label, it removes warts, cures cancer AND cleans the induction tract/combustion chamber. :D Seriously though, read the label.

Do you own a vacuum gauge?
 
Update here;

A little over a week later, and $150 less in my pocket for an O2 Sensor, and High Flow CAT I passed! :yelclap:

(I guess a good thing out of the whole thing is I upgraded to a high flow CAT.)


................Readings ............... Limits.......................my new readings
HC GPM ______.4251 ___________3.0 ______Passed________.8593___

CO GPM ______ .9513 __________25.00 ____ Passed________4.2352__

CO2 GPM _____504.2443 ________0

NOx GPM _____5.846 __________ 5.00 ______Failed__________2.2937__


On the first test I was way over on the NOx, but now I am halfway to my limit listed. I am curious what the OE spec is suppose to be on that? Specifically on a '90 XJ with 168,000 miles on it?

The strange thing is this second test I passed in all categories, but my CO GPM went up x4 from .9513 to 4.2352 & my HC GPM went up x2 from .4251 to .8593 from the 1st test. Even though they are still really low compared to the allowable limits it is weird?

The only difference is just the new CAT & O2 sensor and I had a full tank of 92 octane on the first test and on the second test 1/4 tank of 85 octane.
 
You could run that test 20 times in a row and get nothing but varying readings. I'm convinced that a majority of the result differences lies in the way the technician drives the vehicle on the dyno. I swear I've seen two totally different driving styles between two techs the many times I've been to CAC. You sit in that booth with tests going on on both sides of you, you can see one vehicle jerking all over between accelleration and decelleration, and the other vehicle is moving on the dyno all nice and smooth - and they'll both be automatic cars.......... :mad:
 
Ya wanna hear a funny story. Well my uncle had to get his emissions done for new stickers. He went in and everything passed but the gas cap. So he goes to the parts store and gets a new one. 20-30 minutes later he goes back, And it fails. He was pissed.
 
Crimzon316 said:
Ya wanna hear a funny story. Well my uncle had to get his emissions done for new stickers. He went in and everything passed but the gas cap. So he goes to the parts store and gets a new one. 20-30 minutes later he goes back, And it fails. He was pissed.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've NEVER understood why CAC doesn't capitalize on that. They should stock new gas caps and sell 'em on the spot. This having to go back again for a leaky gas cap crap is B.S.

Just keep spreading the word........ if your time is valuable, it's probably a good idea to replace your gas cap before your e-test just to save time. That way, if one fails, you can hand them the other with a shot at the second one passing.

I always bring 2 caps now.
 
YELLAHEEP said:
You could run that test 20 times in a row and get nothing but varying readings. I'm convinced that a majority of the result differences lies in the way the technician drives the vehicle on the dyno. I swear I've seen two totally different driving styles between two techs the many times I've been to CAC. You sit in that booth with tests going on on both sides of you, you can see one vehicle jerking all over between accelleration and decelleration, and the other vehicle is moving on the dyno all nice and smooth - and they'll both be automatic cars.......... :mad:
Click to expand...

I am right with you there Yella!

I believe the whole thing is a huge scam! :eyes:

Some one it state is best buddies with someone else with a major benefit to gain from this setup and thus made some contracting company a little bit richer....(Air Care is not a part of the state and it is a private company)............not like we have a choice to go to a place other than Air Care Colorado. :thumbdn:

............people will not protest this money stealing scam so here we are still dealing with it after all this time...................... :skull1:
 
YELLAHEEP said:
Yeah, I've NEVER understood why CAC doesn't capitalize on that. They should stock new gas caps and sell 'em on the spot. This having to go back again for a leaky gas cap crap is B.S.

Just keep spreading the word........ if your time is valuable, it's probably a good idea to replace your gas cap before your e-test just to save time. That way, if one fails, you can hand them the other with a shot at the second one passing.

I always bring 2 caps now.
Click to expand...
Conflict of interest: When the IM-240 came in, smaller shops had to seperate service from testing. What I had heard then, was if that a State certified tailpipe test facility had tools on site, they were at risk of losing their license to test. Prior to that, I had watched whatever mechanic adjust my carb while on the test machine. :)

I know one lady who went through the treadmill test and failed for the gas cap. Her next trip through, she handed the tech her new gas cap, made him open the package. She put the cap in the glove box for the next time, it never touched the filler neck. :laugh3:
 
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