'96 XJ 4.0 149K miles - No Power

I guess you can tell I'm not going to blindly replace anything at this point without being pretty sure it's going to fix my problem. I'll put a defective cat conv down as a possible but not going to go out and buy one. Can it be tested some way ?
 
The easiest test for converter plugging is done with a vacuum gauge. Connect the gauge to a source of intake vacuum on the intake manifold, carburetor or throttle body. Note the reading at idle, then raise and hold engine speed at 2,500. The needle will drop when you first open the throttle, but should then rise and stabilize. If the vacuum reading starts to drop, pressure may be backing up in the exhaust system.
Bob, this is the easiest and quickest way to test the cat.

Ignition advance of 14* is about right at idle, with no load.

That MAP reading looks suspect. I think it's either a bad MAP or plugged cat....
 
The fuel system lean code indicates either a bad o2 sensor, or low fuel pressure. How much fuel pressure do you have? On a 96 it should be 50psi.
 
Thanks for all the good input ! I'll check the 2 things mentioned in prev. posts: fuel pressure, cat conv, and I think I'll swap out the MAP sensor with my TJs.
 
As suggested in prev post, I ran rpms up to 2500 for almost a minute while watching vacuum gauge connected to intake manifold (spare port up near front of manifold). Idle reading 17.5 inhg. At 2400 rpm, 21 inhg and it was steady there the entire time I held the engine at that rpm. Tried to swap MAP with my TJ, but although the sensor looks identical, the electrical connector is too different to allow a connection ! I'll forgoe the fuel pressure test until I can find/borrow a tester. Advance Auto has one for $36. I lookin' to borrow one from friend, though. I ordered a replacement MAP which will be in tomorrow AM. I'll follow up after I make the next mail run with the Jeep with new MAP.
 
Bob, I understand not replacing things without knowing they are bad. That is what I preach on here all the time. If your MAP is indeed reading what is really there, you either have a bad vacuum leak or a plugged cat. A simple check is to go to Autozone before you start and get a exhaust pipe union, then simply use a hack saw to cut the pipe before the cat. If it is the cat, you will see a significant difference in the vacuum. By the way, I like to use a vacuum gauge, instead of relying on the MAP sensor readings. If the cat isn't bad, just slide the union over the ends of the pipes and install a couple of clamps. to put it back to the way it was before.

The reason I think cat is that the insides of the cat get broken up into chunks. As you drive the chunks can rearange themselves, effectively plugging the exhaust, lowering the vacuum. You hit a bump, they move around, and presto you have flow. This is very common on vehicles with around 150K miles. Sometimes you can get under the vehicle and bang the cat with your hand, (when cold of course) and you will hear the chunks bounce around. The good thing is that if it is the cat, you will not believe the difference in power and mileage when you replace it.

Some XJ's have a mounting flange for the cat, in that case, just loosen the bolts to allow some leakage.
 
Update to the 'no power' problem: Swapped MAP sensor last Wednesday afternoon. $83. at Advance Auto. Carried mail on Thursday - no change - problem still there. Borrowed fuel pressure gauage when I got back. Measured 51 PSI at the fuel rail test port. Just got back from muffler shop. I asked them to cut the pipe (as suggested in previous post on here) and inspect the cat converter. The ceramic was clean !! It's the original too. No carbon, and no melting, no blockage. They welded the connection back and I walked out of there less $25. Not bad ! So, I'm back to the beginning again. I picked up a fuel filter the other day, so I'll install it this afternoon. I guess I have to get the OBDscan tool (from Harrison R&D) in the Jeep with me tomorrow and get the logging application going. Somehow I need to make room for the PC. More to follow Saturday evening.
 
I have quite a lot of data from my delivery yesterday using the Harrison R&D OBDscan tool in log mode - maybe 15 minutes of it.
Here's a screen shot with a small sampling of the data from yesterday. http://members.cox.net/13regatniv/1013325p_2.html A,B,D are in percent, C is in inches of mercury, E/F are volts. Fuel trim looks like it's max'd out at around 33% when trouble starts. I'll usually get a P0171 but the problem wasn't as bad yesterday as it's been on previous hotter days. In looking at the log file, it seems to me that MAP, O2-1, O2-2 and throttle position sensors are functioning ok. NOTE: O2 sensor voltages are less than a volt. I haven't figured out yet how to adjust the scale so these show up well on the graph. But the values to the left show they are indicating normally. And both coolant and intake manifold temp sensors (not sampled) are giving reasonable values to the PCM. What is evident is the fuel trim increasing when the problem starts. Then as the engine practically stalls (but never actually does stall), O2 sensor voltages both go to zero, fuel trim and throttle position are both high. Then, you can see where I back off on the throttle (since I'm going nowhere and a stall threatens). Fuel trim numbers decrease, O2 voltages start rising. The engine is recovering. No codes were generated during yesterdays run; temps were lower outside and I had fewer situations where I had to cut the Jeep off for a few minutes to let it recover. I've ruled out fuel as a possible at this point. Since I can smell it, it's apparently there in sufficient quantity. The problem seems to be time/temp related. I'm looking at the function of the camshaft position sensor (inside distributor) and crankshaft position sensor. Maybe a component is heating up and then not reporting to the PCM correctly. Injector firing could be out of sync with spark etc. As before, when trouble starts I can put the Jeep in neutral and the engine revs ok. Any comment ?
 
Bob Langford said:
. The problem seems to be time/temp related. I'm looking at the function of the camshaft position sensor (inside distributor) and crankshaft position sensor. Maybe a component is heating up and then not reporting to the PCM correctly. Injector firing could be out of sync with spark etc. As before, when trouble starts I can put the Jeep in neutral and the engine revs ok. Any comment ?

Definetly sounds like a heat related problem and if it were me and you haven't already, I would replace the cam position sensor after I first made sure the distributor shaft is not worn. The sensor came with the distributor I put in my 96. It didn't cause problems except it wore the tips on the cap quickly.

JoBo
99 xj sport.
 
In the FSM it's called a camshaft position sensor, Jeep calls it a stator. Advance Auto has what they call a distributor pickup that they sell by GP Sorensen -EL153- for $34.44. Jeeps sells OEM part for $80.77. Well, as I started to remove the dist. cap, I pulled the coil wire from the cap. It fell apart in my hands !! The contact inside the boot wasn't there, it had been arcing across from the dist. cap pole to the wire. The contact must have been erroded away. I bought a new coil wire. I just installed a new wire set last month. Only thing I can think of is I threw the new coil wire away by mistake and re-installed the old one. All the other wires look ok, the coil wire is shot. Dumb !! If this has been my problem, I'll know after mail deliv tomorrow. And be really embarrassed. If not, I won't be embarrassed but will continue with my idea of replacing the cam pos sensor.
 
Just a note about the crank position sensor. When that signal is lost the engine dies. No warning, just dead. It usually will not start for several minutes. I have heard that the cam position sensor acts the same way.

Neil
 
All the other wires look ok, the coil wire is shot. Dumb !! If this has been my problem, I'll know after mail deliv tomorrow.
Ah ha, I'll just bet that's it, Bob. It's always been the simple stuff that's almost sent me to the asylum.....we'll tune in tomorrow.
 
Nope !!! Coil wire swap helped not at all. In fact, trouble started sooner than ever before. Whatever is wrong is getting worse. Insanity is setting in now. I'm going to buy some parts tonight and start swapping blindly.
 
A fuel filter thats about plugged will act like that. You will also run lean and show a o2 sensor (low) reading. Don't forget what sensors do, they are there to help pinpoint the problem, many times they are the problem but not always.
Lets say you have a vacuum leak, your o2 sensor will be reading low because your running lean. If you have an injector leaking your o2 sensor reading will be (High) because your running rich.
 
I agree I would not ignore what your computer is telling you. It is running the mixture as rich as it can and the O2 sensor is still reading lean.

Neil
 
langer1 said:
A fuel filter thats about plugged will act like that. You will also run lean and show a o2 sensor (low) reading. Don't forget what sensors do, they are there to help pinpoint the problem, many times they are the problem but....

Thanks ! I had the fuel filter since last week but didn't replace until just a few min. ago. Initially, clean fuel dumped out of it. Then, a grayish sludge came out - quite a bit !! So, I don't carry mail until later in the week. Won't know anything until then. Thanks all for input.
 
I still had the no power problem yesterday about 2.5 hours into mail delivery !!! It didn't slow me down much 'cause I had so many parcels that when I got out to porch them, I shut the Jeep down each time and it ran real good after I got going again. Just a couple spots where it chugged along a bit. I'm starting to think the only way this will get resolved will be by systematically replacing any part that may have anything to do with output to the PCM. I'll just replace something each payday. BTW, fuel economy is pretty good for this veh used stop and go like it is. I went 148 miles on 10 gals of gas recently. Can't complain about that.
 
Bob Langford said:
I still had the no power problem yesterday about 2.5 hours into mail delivery !!! It didn't slow me down much 'cause I had so many parcels that when I got out to porch them, I shut the Jeep down each time and it ran real good after I got going again. Just a couple spots where it chugged along a bit. I'm starting to think the only way this will get resolved will be by systematically replacing any part that may have anything to do with output to the PCM. I'll just replace something each payday. BTW, fuel economy is pretty good for this veh used stop and go like it is. I went 148 miles on 10 gals of gas recently. Can't complain about that.

Bob is there any knock comi9ng from the engine? this sounds exactly how our 96 acted just before spinning a few rod bearings.........ran fine then sluggish...the cure was a 99 motor. Im hoping that is not your issue. check your oil pressure with an independant gauge dont trust the dash unit
 
I just read an article about 'knock'. I don't know what it sounds like, though. I know I can sometimes hear pre-ignition (aka ping) going up a hill. Back to knock, do you think I should try a tankful of 89 octane to see if my problem goes away ? BTW, the engine in this Jeep seems strong; no blowby, I don't have to add oil between oil changes etc.
 
Bob Langford said:
I just read an article about 'knock'. I don't know what it sounds like, though. I know I can sometimes hear pre-ignition (aka ping) going up a hill. Back to knock, do you think I should try a tankful of 89 octane to see if my problem goes away ? BTW, the engine in this Jeep seems strong; no blowby, I don't have to add oil between oil changes etc.
Could it be hanging in drive,(not down shifting)?
 
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