110V lincoln welder constantly trips the breaker! annoying 20 amp system

[cracker]

I would upgrade to a 220V Miller :gee:

 

[blondejoncherokee]

alright so I've been running on lower heat, freaking 4 point dial is kinda lame, only 4 heat settings. I have been running on the 3rd setting for .120 wall DOM(hybrid cage) recently and have been doing good with the breaker rarely tripping , as long as i turn every thing off on the circuit all is well( like you all said) and i can seem to weld all night like this, if i bump up to full heat and faster wire speed or turn on ligths/radio i start having issues and i will trip the breaker. I can run faster wire speeds on the 3 lower heat settings so far.

here is my current solution to ensure that its not something other than the welder and then go from here:
run a separate outlet from the box to the garage on its own 30 amp breaker , all its own. Possibly get a higher quality extension cord other that the harbor freight extension cord, it is 10 gauge x 25 ft, should i go with a thicker gauge wire extension cord? especially if i go with a longer cord? Also, ill probably replace the diffuser tip as well since that couldn't hurt.

 

[cracker]

alright so I've been running on lower heat, freaking 4 point dial is kinda lame, only 4 heat settings. I have been running on the 3rd setting for .120 wall DOM(hybrid cage) recently and have been doing good with the breaker rarely tripping , as long as i turn every thing off on the circuit all is well( like you all said) and i can seem to weld all night like this, if i bump up to full heat and faster wire speed or turn on ligths/radio i start having issues and i will trip the breaker. I can run faster wire speeds on the 3 lower heat settings so far.

here is my current solution to ensure that its not something other than the welder and then go from here:
run a separate outlet from the box to the garage on its own 30 amp breaker , all its own. Possibly get a higher quality extension cord other that the harbor freight extension cord, it is 10 gauge x 25 ft, should i go with a thicker gauge wire extension cord? especially if i go with a longer cord? Also, ill probably replace the diffuser tip as well since that couldn't hurt.

If you are having an electrician come by to run the extra circuit for the welder....I would also have him run a 220 for the future if you own your own home.

Get the biggest wire you can to use as an extension cord. I use 8 guage for my 30 foot 110V extension cord but I haven't used it for welding in a few years. I would go on craigslist and buy the wire (used is ok) and then put your own ends on it. I did the same for my 220V items (I use an 80 foot 4 guage cord as an extension cord to get it around the yard).

 

[xcm]

millermatic 220v machines are nice, except for sheet metal. They dont go down low enough.

 

[rockclimber]

I have had this problem with this exact machine.

after spending 3 days teching this problem, having dealt with a certified repair facility for a while, taken the machine to their shop, and experimented with it, as well as experimented with different solutions, I am willing to bet that your problem is the extension chord as well as the welding wire.

first step is to switch to a 10 gauge extension cable. Old man may come after me for this, but I know I right and this will help and here is why:
the problem is not that the machine is over-drawing the circuit during normal operation, the problem is in the machine. because you are running the machine so far away from the source of the power, with only 12ga cable, you are pushing the internal components. they simply can't keep up and the machine looses arc momentarily, so slight that you don't notice, and since you are welding with flux, you do not notice it in your weld either, however when the machine re-establishes arc, it is at its max draw, it does this over and over again for a few seconds unbeknownst to you and that is what blows breakers.

so PART of the solution is to run a 10guage cable, and keep it within 20-25'.

the other part of the solution is to switch to .030 wire. these lincoln machines are much happier with the .030, and there is nothing you can weld with a 110v box that requires .035 anyhow. once I switched to .030 I could weld for a while, even on 12ga, but once the machine heated up a little bit, it would start tripping again. swap the 10ga in and I can weld until it hits the duty cycle no problems. even sharing a circuit with a couple dewalt battery chargers.

FYI I tested this with 4 different dedicated 20 amp circuits, then moved to a 30 amp circuit and it would blow that on 25' of 12ga with .035 flux.

 

[Boss Cherokee]

X

I disagree that using a larger conductor extension cord will increase the AMP draw. The AMP draw is fixed based on the design and internal specifications of the unit. If the wires are too small to allow the needed amount of current, the wires will over heat pass less current and repeats itself until something gives,...in this case the breaker trips.

While it is possible that you may have a faulty welder, I would also look at the size of wires in the wall. Like a high/er AMP alternator retrofitted to the XJ with the corresponding larger alternator to battery cable, so also all the wire from the breaker panel the the welder must be up to the task. There are charts available that will help you to determine based on length of wire and the AMP draw the correct size of wire to use. I will also get an extension with larger conductors as well take a good look at the outlet itself.

I hope it all work out for you soon.

My experience having 4 welders at present & welding with inadequet wiring till I bought my home back in the day, is #1 a weak breaker over time possibly compounded by an under amp capacity breaker as well as, small gauged power cords. My welder kept tripping due to power cord which killed the breaker over time. That's my two cents.

 

[blondejoncherokee]

so it seems for the short run , a better than current solution is until i get a dedicated circuit:

get 8 gauge wire and make a new 25 foot extension cord-unless you think the 10 gauge x 25 ft i currently have is enough?
swap out the .035 for some .030 flux core
replace the breaker again, they are only like 5$.

Long run solution probably in the next few weeks:

have my friend luke, an electrician , come over an hook up 2 new outlets: 220V and a 110v , each on on their own circuit

 

[cracker]

have my friend luke, an electrician , come over an hook up 2 new outlets: 220V and a 110v , each on on their own circuit

:thumbup:

I don't think it is necessarity recommended but you can also split the 220 and run 110 off of it should you need a breaker larger than 30AMP

 

[GrimmJeeper]

:thumbup:

I don't think it is necessarity recommended but you can also split the 220 and run 110 off of it should you need a breaker larger than 30AMP

this is how I wired the 110 socket my little lincoln 125 is connected to, piggy backed off of the 220v plug I had put in.

 

[cracker]

this is how I wired the 110 socket my little lincoln 125 is connected to, piggy backed off of the 220v plug I had put in.

Bingo

A 110v welder cannot blow a 50A circuit

 

[blondejoncherokee]

Bingo

A 110v welder cannot blow a 50A circuit

ya good call guys. i would love a 220v miller someday.
until then, i just want to get this one dialed in. running on the 2nd highest heat setting has temporarily solved most of my problems, nothing i have done lately has been over .120 wall for the most part, with some .250 wall stuff here and there. ( .120 DOM cage stuff , floor brackets, some additional plating here and there around shackle boxes, etc)

i still try to get my buddy with his 220 at the shop to do 3/8" knuckle gussets, trussing to the housing, stuff like that, as much as possible...

 

[xbaadleej]

SPOBI
Before you make such forcefull statements, how about if you get a degree in electrical engineering and a few years of experience. What you say is absolutely WRONG. I've been an electronics test engineer for almost 40 years and I am the head of test engineering for a 300 million dollar company.

I have an electrical engineering degree and im also a master electrician and you are wrong all day long. Stick to your circuit boards!

 

[hubs97xj]

If voltage is constant, and resistance increases, does current increase or decrease? Some of what you guys are saying doesn't make any sense, unless you're omitting something.

 

[old_man]

I have an electrical engineering degree and im also a master electrician and you are wrong all day long. Stick to your circuit boards!

I call you out on this.

So you claim to be an EE and a master electrician. Explain why you think I am wrong. I don't want words, I want formulas. Prove to me your are who you say you are, show me the math.

I designed test equipment for 20+ years for Hewlett Packard. I worked on 1 megawatt solar power inverters for Advanced Energy. I designed radars for the F111 and did the testing on the new ATFLIR for the FA18.I am currently the head of the test engineering department for NEONInc.org a Federally funded National Observatory. I even taught college 35+ years ago.

 

[xbaadleej]

If your asumption that the winding was shorted was correct, than a heavier gauge wire would indeed cause the breaker to trip even faster. But if you actually looked into what could be an actual problem with the use of this machine or just some basic electrical math and trouble shooting instead of just jumping right to the welder being FUBAR, then you would see that there is a simple solution here.

With out having all the unknown factors like actual wire length and even conductor size your cant calculate actual circuit voltage drop. Not to mention if the circuit goes around the house twice and has 10 less than stellar splices in it. You could have big problems getting the minimum 115 volts need by this machine.

But then again if you look at the user guide, even at best if you had a dedicated 20 amp circuit to only the plug that your plugged into and NO EXTENSION CORD, and had that thing cranked to the max you would still be popping breakers.

basic formulas for everyone
V = I x R (Voltage = Current multiplied by Resistance)
R = V / I (Resistance = Voltage divided by Current)
I = V / R (Current = Voltage Divided by Resistance)
Voltage drop calculator if your interested
http://www.electrician2.com/vd_calculator.htm


This here is directly from the users manual.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im725.pdf

Requirements For Rated Output
A ​

​

power cord with a 15 amp, 125 volt, three prong
plug (NEMA Type 5-15P) is factory installed on the
SP-135 PLUS. Connect this plug to a mating grounded
receptacle which is connected to a 20 amp branch
circuit with a nominal voltage rating of 115 to 125
volts, 60 Hertz, AC only.
The rated output with this installation is 90 amps, 18
Volts, 20% duty cycle (2 minutes of every 10 minutes​

used for welding).

Requirements For Maximum Output​

In order to utilize the maximum output capability of the
machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at 115
to 125 volts, 60 Hertz is required. This generally
applies when welding steel that is equal to or greater​

than 12 gauge, 0.105” (2.5 mm) in thickness.


So at the end of the day get a dedicated circuit capable of handling what your doing and you will be fine. And (old man) Im not trying to be a prick or bust your balls, but with so many unknow factors and trying to trouble shoot stuff over the interweb you cant allways be right so dont ASS-U-ME that your the only one on here that knows anything about electricity/electronics.

/end rant

 

[old_man]

If your asumption that the winding was shorted was correct, than a heavier gauge wire would indeed cause the breaker to trip even faster. But if you actually looked into what could be an actual problem with the use of this machine or just some basic electrical math and trouble shooting instead of just jumping right to the welder being FUBAR, then you would see that there is a simple solution here.

With out having all the unknown factors like actual wire length and even conductor size your cant calculate actual circuit voltage drop. Not to mention if the circuit goes around the house twice and has 10 less than stellar splices in it. You could have big problems getting the minimum 115 volts need by this machine.

But then again if you look at the user guide, even at best if you had a dedicated 20 amp circuit to only the plug that your plugged into and NO EXTENSION CORD, and had that thing cranked to the max you would still be popping breakers.

basic formulas for everyone
V = I x R (Voltage = Current multiplied by Resistance)
R = V / I (Resistance = Voltage divided by Current)
I = V / R (Current = Voltage Divided by Resistance)
Voltage drop calculator if your interested
http://www.electrician2.com/vd_calculator.htm


This here is directly from the users manual.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im725.pdf

Requirements For Rated Output​

A

​

​

​

power cord with a 15 amp, 125 volt, three prong​

plug (NEMA Type 5-15P) is factory installed on the

SP-135 PLUS. Connect this plug to a mating grounded

receptacle which is connected to a 20 amp branch
circuit with a nominal voltage rating of 115 to 125
volts, 60 Hertz, AC only.
The rated output with this installation is 90 amps, 18
Volts, 20% duty cycle (2 minutes of every 10 minutes​

​

used for welding).​

​

​

Requirements For Maximum Output

In order to utilize the maximum output capability of the

machine, a branch circuit capable of 25 amps at 115
to 125 volts, 60 Hertz is required. This generally
applies when welding steel that is equal to or greater​

than 12 gauge, 0.105

​

​

” (2.5 mm) in thickness.​

So at the end of the day get a dedicated circuit capable of handling what your doing and you will be fine. And (old man) Im not trying to be a prick or bust your balls, but with so many unknow factors and trying to trouble shoot stuff over the interweb you cant allways be right so dont ASS-U-ME that your the only one on here that knows anything about electricity/electronics.​

/end rant​

OK, a civilized discussion works for me. How do you explain how you are going to pull more current with a higher resistance in series with the machine? Current in a welder is based upon a few things. (1) voltage delivered to the welder (2) the inductance (simplified) of the transformer (3) strength of the arc ...ie the wire size.​

The current through the transformer is really a function of the saturability of the core, the reluctance of the core, the Q of the transformer, the size of the wire, and the load, etc.​

The load on the output of the transformer is really dependant on the arc. The arc depends on mainly on the voltage output, which is a function of the windings being selected by the switch and to a lesser amount the size of the wire/arc. Less voltage means less arc current.​

Given the fact that it once worked and now doesn't, what changed? My first thought was the breaker, but it was said that the breaker was changed out. That pretty much leaves the welder pulling more current. What would cause that? There are several things; shorted windings on the transformer, a bad diode in the bridge. All of these things cause more current to be drawn. It would be interesting to see the welder put on a much bigger breaker and then seeing if it overheated and blew the thermal breaker.​

I had a Craftsman (Century) 120v welder for years. I welded a lot of super thin sheetmetal material. To lessen the output power, I ran it on a large variac and dropped the voltage. Before that I used a wet pile resistor to limit the current. Using a small power cord acts like a voltage divider and also drops the voltage. Doing these things caused a reduction in current, not an increase.

Using the formula I=V/R, what happens to the current when you increase R? Since the R is in series, what happens to the voltage across the welder as the R is increased?​

The standard house type breaker is referred to as a thermal-magnetic circuit breaker. They have what are called trip curves. A breaker does not instantly trip when its rated current is exceeded. Typically at a load of about 1.5 times the rated current,it can easlily take up to 2 minutes to trip. The OP said he could only weld an inch or two before it tripped. Lets call that 30 seconds of weld time. To get it to trip in that amount of time, you need to more than double the current. What can cause a doubling of current. Like I said, there are basically only a couple of things chat could double the current; a shorted winding on the transformer or a blown diode.

Having said all of this, it all depends on an accurate statement of the conditions by the OP. Without that, all bets are off.

 

[GrimmJeeper]

 

[NorCalChris]

:cheers:

 

[tone]

:cheers: