First cage build

[OutkastBoss]

Chachi and I threw down on a bender so it is time to build a Hybrid cage for the rig! I decided on doing an 8 point halo, hybrid. Ive been doing lots of looking around and some sketching. Let me know what input you guys have.

For the tools we have a Jd2 Model 32 on a rolling stand with the HF air over hydro ram on a swag mount kit. We have a J2 tubing notcher that came with it. We are looking for a horizontal band saw for cutting the tubing. Chachi knows more about the welding side of it but we are building a homebrew water cooler for a tig torch we got with pyrex cups. We have the die and the intention of building the cage with 1-3/4" .120 wall D.O.M. tubing.

After looking at tons of these things online here are the sketches I came up with.

A: Tube Layout from top view

I let a couple select people vote and we like The circled one, we would use mesh or something to create a platform on top of our jeep to climb up on or use as a tie town rack.

B: Ideas for front of halo

We want the Halo to be tied into the rain gutter so it needs to go past the front and overhang a touch so it can sit low. I want to make sure the windshield is easily replaceable but a little bit of a brim shape looks cool to us. The problem here is we need commentary from people that understand the structural integrity of these possible designs better than we do. So here we are.

C: Rear end of halo

I really liked the 3rd idea but I don't think it will work because of the need for the gate to open all the way. By the time it clears it sits up way too high.
D: Top view of how the rear of halo ends

I think on that one 1 or 2 is the way to go I don't think 3 would work because of hatch clearance but the idea was to have a small kick in the back like the spoiler maybe if the Y arm piece was a smaller tube idk.

I have more I will be posting tonight about tie ins etc. but that is the basic outer halo design so far! All of these sketches are from cues from existing cages that I have links to pics of for examples but the sketches are plenty I'm sure.

 

[OutkastBoss]

Okay, Now for Tie ins to the existing Metal!

The A-pillar bars will travel down the outside of the pillar and enter the top of the fender. They will tie into the pre existing 2x6 rockers

For the b- pillar I will Probably add a heavy duty tie in between my mid stiffeners and my 2x6 rockers Like this. I will probably use bolt down plates where the tubing passes through the ceiling or floor like Eric did on the roof as well.
http://naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=244512753&postcount=2

For the C and D pillar I like how this guy has plate off of the frame come up through the floor to tie into a plate on the floor for the pillar mount. However the Tube over from the rail and tube up like he did for the shock hoops also looks interesting. Which way do you guys think is stronger
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-cherokee/1088541-another-hybrid-cage.html


The cross bracing tube work Inside of the Jeep at the B pillar hasn't been decided yet But I do want to integrate a grab bar for the back seat like John D did http://naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=246100558&postcount=63

For safety reasons with all that tube in there I want to Have 5 point harnesses. I will need to do some research on how the tube needs to be run and what seats I would need to accommodate that. The Scorpion crawler that BleepinJeep just built has cool seats but Idk if something like that is in the cards or not pricewise.

Between the C and D pillars I want to lay down my spare flat and build a basket that makes a floor just above the spare and has short walls that don't go above the top of the back seat. So bracing between them would be covered by that.

The finishing touches would be tubing that runs inside the fender from the A pillar out the front of the header and ties into the bumper. And then possibly a cowl spreader that runs inside of the cowl and is removable with the tmr customs tube clamps. Another possibility would be a spreader engine cage bar that runs just in front of the engine and is also removable via tubing clamps.


I was also thinking of using short pieces of tube to tie in from the cage to the existing jeep as well such as: front 1/4 armor tie in to tube behind it in a few spots (same in rear) and tie ins from the internal Pillars to the inside of the actual corresponding pillar.

My build thread is way out of date so for reference I have front to back frame stiffeners stell front and rear 1/4 armor with steel tube fenders and integrated rear taillight boxes and rear rub rail. I also have 2x6 steel rockers with standoffs to the frame stiffeners and front and rear HD bumpers.Anyways At the least this has given me a space to gather my ideas and reference people that may advise me too, Thanks !

 

[1-tonxj]

You could save money for the seats by using HREW over CREW...trust me it holds up fine and that is real world use not Pirate babble .

 

[OutkastBoss]

You could save money for the seats by using HREW over CREW...trust me it holds up fine and that is real world use not Pirate babble .

Will have to look into that, I have a quote for 200ft of the d.om. at right around $600. That doesn't seem too bad really.

 

[POSJ]

Pretty cool video about tube strength...not scientific or tensil strength based...just a dude with a cherry picker:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buu3Ytubp1s

Not trying to argue either way, just showing video of the two...I will be building ERW/HREW not DOM...

 

[1-tonxj]

Pretty cool video about tube strength...not scientific or tensil strength based...just a dude with a cherry picker:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buu3Ytubp1s

Not trying to argue either way, just showing video of the two...I will be building ERW/HREW not DOM...

Yeah the common arguments fot dom is the "lack" of a seam to dent ...lol...but it has one and welded just the same hence the last 3 letters ERW...there are so many myths about dom vs hrew but it cones down to obe thing the steel ...hrew is 1010 and dom is a 1020 so it has higher tensile but on a cage using 1.75 diamater hrew with proper bracing there should never be an issue...my rig weighs almost 6000lbs had been on the roof and side and then it was only an exo with one inner b tie in...lol...it is way more tied in and braced now . 1.75 hrew will support more load than 1.5 dom despite the tensile strengh advantage of dom . I have .240 wall on my fender hoops and side bars of my halo as they hot often and nothing beats dent resistance like wall thickness. Everywhere else exterior is .120 interior I used some
thinner stuff but a few of my main internal pillars are 2 inch ...I can flop this thing all day long and just laugh .

 

[1-tonxj]

I'm not a fan of the raised wing rear of the halo it is like putting a light bar on the front of the halo on top and a big hoop over the light bar sti kibg way above the rest of the halo...it looks cool but when you go over and land you will be hitting mostly just that raised hoop and that is going to focus the load right on that rather than spread out ...lol...kind of like rolling with a spare tire on the roof .

 

[Phil]

Like this up front?

 

[rockclimber]

I'm midway through my hybrid build.

I went with a similar design to yours. Although I'm not doing any cross brace from C-D crossbar.

All DOM. .120" wall. Mix of 1-3/4" and 1-1/2"

The only change I would make would Be to use .90" wall tube wherever I could do save weight.

 

[1-tonxj]

I'm midway through my hybrid build.

I went with a similar design to yours. Although I'm not doing any cross brace from C-D crossbar.

All DOM. .120" wall. Mix of 1-3/4" and 1-1/2"

The only change I would make would Be to use .90" wall tube wherever I could do save weight.

An entire 150ft of tube used in a cage made from 1.75 diameter .090-.095 vs .120 wall only saves about 50lbs ....so a few interior sections made from it saves less than the weight of your fanny pack .

 

[rockclimber]

hindsight I would use .090 anywhere that wasn't going to make direct contact with rocks.

even if I only saved 100 lbs, it would have been worth it.

cheaper too.

 

[1-tonxj]

You could build a typical cage exclusively from .095 wall 1.75 diameter tube and would only save 50lbs over the use of .120 . Besides rock contact wall thickness also resists cave in of the tube at the stress points like where the tubes join and where gussets are placed ...

1.679 lbs per foot for 1.75 .095 wall tube vs 2.089 for .120 wall...lol...I like to select my materials by actual spec not popular opinion on Pirate ...lol...I also have some ...PIPE...in my build I picked it up cheap surplus it is DOM PIPE made from same grade steel as TUBE ...lol...but pipe is for poo.

 

[rockclimber]

the only reason I wouldn't use pipe is I don't have a die for it.

 

[ROKRWLR]

You could build a typical cage exclusively from .095 wall 1.75 diameter tube and would only save 50lbs over the use of .120 . Besides rock contact wall thickness also resists cave in of the tube at the stress points like where the tubes join and where gussets are placed ...

1.679 lbs per foot for 1.75 .095 wall tube vs 2.089 for .120 wall...lol...I like to select my materials by actual spec not popular opinion on Pirate ...lol...I also have some ...PIPE...in my build I picked it up cheap surplus it is DOM PIPE made from same grade steel as TUBE ...lol...but pipe is for poo.

I'd suggest using something thicker like .188 in any areas that are "rub rails". I have a couple places I'm grinding into the .120 I used and will need to replace one day. For cost, I used DOM anywhere a rock impact was possible and ERW / HREW anywhere safe from that.

 

[1-tonxj]

I'd suggest using something thicker like .188 in any areas that are "rub rails". I have a couple places I'm grinding into the .120 I used and will need to replace one day. For cost, I used DOM anywhere a rock impact was possible and ERW / HREW anywhere safe from that.

Why would you worry bout rock contact...DOM abd HREW dent bout the same and both have seams ...the DOM is stiffer so it holds more weight before bending but will dent bout same , so it will hold up a bit better on longer un braced sections...I did use .250 on the rub rail points and slid 1.5 into the side rails of the halo ...

All the guys who build a cage fron tin foil thick tube will regret the choice first hard roll unless they designed their xj to be throw away after first roll.

 

[ROKRWLR]

Why would you worry bout rock contact...DOM abd HREW dent bout the same and both have seams ...the DOM is stiffer so it holds more weight before bending but will dent bout same , so it will hold up a bit better on longer un braced sections...I did use .250 on the rub rail points and slid 1.5 into the side rails of the halo ...



All the guys who build a cage fron tin foil thick tube will regret the choice first hard roll unless they designed their xj to be throw away after first roll.

My understanding, and I am no expert on this, is that HREW dents easier than DOM. This was the general consensus when I built mine. I believe it has to do with the second process of drawing the tube over the mandrel when making it DOM.

 

[1-tonxj]

My understanding, and I am no expert on this, is that HREW dents easier than DOM. This was the general consensus when I built mine. I believe it has to do with the second process of drawing the tube over the mandrel when making it DOM.

Many DOM myths the cold rolling process and the. Lattice structure is what you heard but that would wffect...stiffness...and stiffness and hardness are Two different properties ...stiffness would be the tubes ability to not bend under load and hardness would be the ability to resist a dent . On most websites folks debate the magic properties of DOM. but they fail to read the side of tube which usually reads1020 on DOM and 1010 on HREW that is the start and ending of all HREW vs DOM debate...the grade of steel difference...1020 is higher tensile than 1010 ...so it will hold more weight b4 bending just like the cherry picker video on youtube , but hit it with a hamner or rock and dents appear the same and dented tube is junk no matter the process used to make the shape or material ...lol...most web DOM discussion fail before they start since the folks do not understand stiffness and hardness are two differenr properties and use the terms as if interchangeable.

 

[ROKRWLR]

Here's some information I found on hardness. Not sure how much of a difference RB80 is vs RB55. Is this actually a significant difference or would we never know the difference? Someone smarter than me on the topic can interpret or validate this info. I'd be curious to know.

From this thread:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/57088-dom-vs-hrew-vs-erw-vs-wtf.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1020 DOM STEEL TUBE

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1020 is normally used in the manufacturing of small-diameter or thin-wall DOM steel tube. DOM is formed from strip and electric-resistance welded, then cold drawn to size. The cold drawing process causes the weld line to virtually disappear.
American Specifications: ASTM A513 Type 5

British Specifications: 040 A 20, 070 M 20

Applications: Mechanical, hydraulic cylinders, shaft, tight tolerance requirements

Size Range: 1/4" - 14&1/2" (6 mm - 368 mm) OD; .035" - .625" (.9 mm - 16 mm) wall

Typical Chemical Analysis: C .15-.25
Mn .30-.60
P .040 max
S .050 max

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Typical Mechanical Properties: Tensile strength (ksi) 80
Yield point (ksi) 70
Elongation (% in 2") 15
Rockwell hardness RB80



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1018 COLD DRAWN AND HOT FINISHED SEAMLESS TUBE
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1018 is normally used in the manufacturing of cold drawn and hot finished seamless tube. The production of seamless tube is generally made by piercing a hot rolled bar. Hot finished is generally furnished in the unannealed condition, whereas cold drawn seamless is supplied in the unannealed or S/R annealed conditions, depending on the size.
American Specifications: ASTM A519

British Specifications: 070 M 20, 080 A 15

Applications: Axles, shafts, gears, bearings

Size Range: 1/8" - 24" (3 mm - 610 mm) OD; .0218" - 3.00" (.6 mm - 76 mm) wall

Typical Chemical Analysis: C .15-.20
Mn .60-.90
P .040 max
S .050 max
Typical Mechanical Properties: CDS HFS
Tensile strength (ksi) 80 60
Yield point (ksi) 60 35
Elongation (% in 2") 15 30
Rockwell hardness RB88 RB60



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1010 ELECTRIC WELD STEEL TUBE


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1010 is normally used in the manufacturing of electric-resistance welded tube. The product is available normally in cold rolled strip (16 gauge and lighter), and hot rolled strip (.083" wall and heavier). The product can be obtained in the as-welded condition (flash-in) or in the flash-controlled condition.

American Specifications: ASTM A513 Type 1 and Type 2

British Specifications: 040 A 10, 045 A 10

Applications: Machinery stands, exhaust tubes, handles, hand rails, display stands, conveyor rollers

Size Range: 1/4" - 10" (6 mm - 254 mm) OD; .028" - .375" (.7 mm - 10 mm) wall

Typical Chemical Analysis: C .08-.13
Mn .30-.60
P .035 max
S .035 max
Typical Mechanical Properties: Tensile strength (ksi) 45
Yield point (ksi) 32
Elongation (% in 2") 15 min
Rockwell hardness RB55 min





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1026 STEEL TUBE


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1026 grade is normally used in the manufacturing of DOM, cold drawn seamless and hot finished seamless. This grade normally furnished over 2" OD, with walls heavier than .156". A variety of thermal treatments can be supplied, depending on the type and size of material.

American Specifications: ASTM A519 (SMLS), ASTM A513 Type 5 (DOM)

British Specifications: 070 M 26

Applications: Mechanical, hydraulic cylinders, shaft, tight tolerance requirements

Size Range: 1/8" - 24" (3 mm - 610 mm) OD; .028" - 3.00" (.7 mm - 76 mm) wall

Typical Chemical Analysis: C .22-.28
Mn .60-.90
P .040 max
S .050 max
Typical Mechanical Properties: CDS DOM HFS
Tensile strength (ksi) 87 80 70
Yield point (ksi) 72 70 47
Elongation (% in 2") 10 10 28
Rockwell hardness RB89 RB85 RB78​

 

[1-tonxj]

That 4 digit number is the big differece hrew is 1010 it is apples to oranges...I ha e some tube I ruibed by giving it a few whaps witha 3lb sledge when slugging a repair section in my cage it was dom it dented just like the hrew.

 

[foxwar71]

I'm gunna build my next cage outta wood dowels