exhaust questions: #1 Ceramic coating?

[cherokeeproject]

I know threads on exhaust systems are a dime a dozen, but I have searched and not found any reliable information to answer my questions. SO, since i'm at the point in my build that I need to replace my exhaust system I feel some discussion would be good before I drop the big bucks.

So I plan on getting the JBA shorty header since its the only one I can find that has a 2.5" collector and the option for a 14 gage steel to be used. (here's the link http://www.summitracing.com/parts/jba-1526s/overview/year/1996/make/jeep/model/cherokee ) the system is going to be used on a 4.6L stoker build so im definitely wanting the 2.5". It will get mated up to a 6" flex coupling to help keep any stress off the header and help prevent any cracking. the flex coupling will then mate to the rest of the 2.5" dia system (most likely the banks system, with a high flow cat) I plan for the entire system to be stainless steel and built to last (I don't like buying the same thing twice)

so my first question on this system is whether or not to shell out the extra $150 for the ceramic coating from JBA, they offer two types, the silver ceramic and the titanium ceramic, both are the same price. I would definitely want some kind of coating to help keep the heat to a minimum inside the engine bay, but it just seems pretty pricey. the other option was to see if there was a way I could save some money by getting them coated myself but what would be the difference in quality & price? has anyone had experience with having a header ceramic coated from a third party?

this brings me to my next question, would the coating need to be done right away? obviously it would be best to be done on a brand new manifold but if its being done by a third party could it be done on a used manifold with a little cleanup?

and finally my last question is a simple one, has anyone had any experience with the JBA header and the fitment of everything? I have found no first hand experience from anyone on . Since this is going to be used on a wheeled jeep I don't want the collector to hang down too low and cause interference issues with the upper control arm mount or the differential housing. also some input from an ACTUAL user on quality & performance would be nice. Any other USEFUL input would be appreciated, thanks in advance!

 

[sidriptide]

Since this is going to be used on a wheeled jeep ..................

that in itself is a reason NOT to get too spendy on the stainless system. it may not rust our but your going to beat the crap out of it.
i have no experience with JBA but i'd suggest getting it coated by the mfg. they will do it right and any warranty that the headers have will be voided by the aftermarket coating.
i have had old headers restored and coated in the past it's all about surface prep and using a good part to start with.

 

[cherokeeproject]

that in itself is a reason NOT to get too spendy on the stainless system. it may not rust our but your going to beat the crap out of it.
i have no experience with JBA but i'd suggest getting it coated by the mfg. they will do it right and any warranty that the headers have will be voided by the aftermarket coating.
i have had old headers restored and coated in the past it's all about surface prep and using a good part to start with.

beating the crap out of it is my biggest concern with the headers, I can set my bumpstops to make sure they don't make contact but I don't want to have to limit it too much. im not too concerned with beating the crap out of the rest of the system, that's understandable. I can always cut and weld in replacement pieces where needed so the header back system is pretty much going to be the cheapest 2.5" Stainless system I can find. The header is going to be the major part of the cost though.

 

[Anak]

I have more experience with ceramic coatings than I care to admit. Among other things, I managed Manufacturing Engineering for Hooker Headers for several years. We did ceramic coating in house.

I can tell you that the cost of $150 is not out of line. From a production perspective ceramic coating is another set of headers in the box. It is not just a paint job. It is very labor, energy and materials intensive. The polishing is critical to the durability of the finish. There's no way around it and it's a pain.

I do not know anything about JBA's ceramic coating, but I would expect they are heavily dependent on one of the companies which specialize in it. Whether they coat the headers themselves, or farm it out I do not know. It has been a long time since I was in JBA's facility and I know they have moved and grown since then. It might be worth asking how well they warrant their coating. That will tell you how much confidence they have in their product.

If I were looking at getting a header myself and getting it coated I would actually not order it already finished. My experience is that headers often require some kind of modification in order to install them. It might be just a bit of grinding on a flange to clear a bracket or a head bolt, or it may be a matter of needing to weld on a reducer or an O2 sensor bung, or maybe just needing to add a dimple to a tube to clear a linkage or an ear on a bell housing. Until I have actually fit that particular header design in that particular application I would be hesitant to pay the price for ceramic coating until I knew I wouldn't need to damage it.

The other reason to wait until I have fit checked the headers is that I would probably prefer to have the coating done by a company whose reputation is entirely dependent on that process. Not that the header manufacturers don't want to do a good job, but quality control varies over time, and those coatings are not their sole reputation.

And yes, I realize that means installing the header twice and paying for a bunch of extra shipping. That is the other side of the argument. Weigh both sides for your own situation. What I prefer may not be viable for you. I understand that.

Also note that you will probably pay more to get a used header ceramic coated than you will a new one. Installed and fit checked should not count as "used". The rust which accompanies "used" should be the reason for the higher pricing. Look into it with the company of your choice. It's been quite a while since I was in the industry.

The most important bit of advice I can give you is to not let that ceramic coated system live its life sitting as a garage queen above a concrete slab. Nothing wipes out a ceramic finish faster than moisture, and a concrete slab tends to be a very moist environment. Several times I had to deal with angry customers who could not believe that their expensive ceramic finish was peeling off after less than a year. And on a car which saw very few miles in that time. Invariably the car was living in a garage, not being driven, spending all its time on an enclosed concrete slab. That is the recipe for failure.

If your vehicle is driven daily (or nearly so) it should be fine for much longer.

The best thing to do is to put a moisture barrier down. That can be as simple as a sheet of visqueen or as expensive as an epoxy coating on the floor. In between are such things as a carpet remnant or a sheet of plywood. The better you protect the system from moisture the longer it will last for you.

 

[cherokeeproject]

That's incredible insight Anak, thanks for the info. Its good to hear it come from someone with industry experience. You have a good point on test fitting first, I didn't think of that. As far as moisture goes, is it mainly a problem with sustained moisture at room temp? Because my build will see quite a bit of mud and water, it's going to be driven to the beach, lake, and my deer lease (mud pit) frequently. It will see more road time than off road however, probably 60% on road But not daily driven. Most likely this thing will get driven on average of 2-3 times a week.

 

[Anak]

I don't think the moisture you experience while driving is a problem. Among other reasons, that moisture will probably dry off very quickly if the motor is running.

When stored in a garage the moisture is constant. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

If I can remember the terminology correctly the ceramic coating is a galvanically active sacrificial coating. It gives itself up in order to protect the part. There is only so much that it can give up before it dies (starts flaking off). It is designed to withstand heat, and can do that much better than it can withstand moisture.

Keep the humidity down and you should be fine.

 

[cherokeeproject]

I don't think the moisture you experience while driving is a problem. Among other reasons, that moisture will probably dry off very quickly if the motor is running.

When stored in a garage the moisture is constant. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

If I can remember the terminology correctly the ceramic coating is a galvanically active sacrificial coating. It gives itself up in order to protect the part. There is only so much that it can give up before it dies (starts flaking off). It is designed to withstand heat, and can do that much better than it can withstand moisture.

Keep the humidity down and you should be fine.

sounds like a plan, could you offer any direction into finding a coating company?

 

[Anak]

I could have sworn that HPC was who we sourced our materials and support from and that Jet-hot was their competitor, but it appears that HPC and Jet-hot are now one and the same. I am going to guess that Jet-hot purchased HPC. I think HPC used to be based out of Utah. It's been quite a while so I could be wrong.

Link to Jet-hot: http://www.jet-hot.com/

The other thing I found in my search is that there are now several local companies (local to me) which are offering ceramic coatings. If you can find a good local shop then you can avoid the shipping charges. Headers are a PITA to pack up and ship. They're not heavy, but they are bulky. Local would be worth looking into.

It would be worthwhile to figure out who the local shops are and then do a search for any reviews/complaints about their product/service. Expect someone to have a complaint, but if you find a history of angry customers scratch that one off the list. Happy customers aren't necessarily motivated to speak up, so don't be surprised if you can't find much on that front.

Once you determine which shops have the fewest complaints give them a call and drop by to check them out. Ask them whose products they are using and what the quality expectations are. They should have no problem telling you who they get their coating from. They may not be able to give you a tour of the process, but they should be able to at least grab a jug of the coating and show you the label. Note that unless they grab the jug right off the shaker it will be visibly separated. The solids in this product do not remain in solution at all. At Hooker we used spray guns with detail cups. There was no point in pouring out any more than would fit in a detail cup. The solids would fall to the bottom within a few minutes, even in a gun that was being turned/twisted following a mess of snakes.

You should specifically inquire into their polishing process and how they measure the quality of the coating. At Hooker we used a multi-meter to get a reading in ohms across a set distance (Yes--on every single header, and in multiple places at that). Odds are a local shop will be doing the same thing. They should be able to show you a good reading on your own finished product when you pick it up. If you come in with that as an expectation they will probably identify you as the educated customer and make darn sure they get your job right.

As to the points where to measure for the quality of the coating, tight inside corners at flanges and close places where tubes come close together will not be able to be polished well. Don't crucify someone because the readings there are out of spec. The polishing beads simply won't get into those corners. There's nothing you can do about it, and yes, those are the places where the coating will start to fail first (assuming you don't scrape if off during installation or going over rocks). That is the nature of the beast. Keep your expectations reasonable. It's a remarkable product, but it does have its limitations.

 

[cherokeeproject]

Thanks again Anak, you've been a huge help. I'll have to look around, I live near Houston so I would imagine there has to be a coater in the area. now that I have some direction I can go forward with my research. I've still got to order the header, hoping I can get a promotional deal or something to save some $$. I just hope I can remember all this when it comes time to finish it all out.

would they coat inside and out of the header? and would coating the inside even be an advantage?

 

[Anak]

Inside coating would involve some very specialized equipment, and trying to check quality would be a challenge. I suspect it can be done, but it is probably at something like the Formula 1 level. Or NASA. Houston you say?

My experience is that they spray the insides to the extent that a spray gun will reach in the collector and each port, but to try to go through the length of each tube would be another matter entirely.

The inside is pretty well sealed up, and corrosion problems tend to be a problem of the outside. The extra insulation would be nice, but the price would put it out of reason. I wouldn't worry about anything special on the inside. OTOH, if you find your location in Houston gives you access to someone who is already set up to do this it might actually be an option available to you. It wouldn't hurt to ask. Just don't be surprised if it triples the cost of the process.

 

[Hillbilly XJ]

I have been an active Drag Racer since 1964 till 2009 and used coatings since Jet Hot came out with it.

I never bought my headers coated and for the reason stated earlier, fitment of the header. Once you get the header installed it to the system completely, I can't tell you how many times I had to put a dent in my headers to get them to fit. Even had to make a few for the header bolts a few times, BTW buy new header bolts and locks for them.

When you have them fitted place them in the box they came in and send them to be coated. If it were me I would send them to Jet Hot there you know the quality of the coating and their work. I went with a local company one time on a custom built set of stainless headers made for a SBC with Twin Turbo's one on each header $2700 and they screwed it up. My fault I was in a hurry I never did that again.

 

[Anak]

That is a good point about buying new header bolts. As a general rule the hardware which comes with headers is the cheapest thing the manufacturer can get away with. It is worth your while to upgrade. Some of those bolts you don't ever want to touch again. I don't suppose those nightmares exist on a straight 6 in an XJ, but some V-8 applications are just evil.

 

[cherokeeproject]

Would it be worthwhile to do all stainless on the exhaust system? I've also seen / read of people putting anti-seize on the flange bolts... Overkill? I've always soaked everything in liquid wrench or PB Blaster before I work on any exhaust system and it's worked so far, just curious and like to hear opinions from the pro's

 

[Anak]

I don't believe in dry fasteners. Anti-seize, moly or motor oil depending on the application. Exhaust always gets anti-seize.

As to stainless, I don't know that it makes sense on a vehicle which is likely to hammer the daylights out of the exhaust going over rocks. Perhaps if you lived where heavily salted roads would kill the system before the rocks did, or perhaps if your XJ really was for nothing more than the mall...

Stainless does have advantages for heat retention, and if you found you could run a stainless header for less than a ceramic coated steel header then I would indeed recommend going the stainless route. I haven't priced any stainless headers in comparison to ceramic lately. What little Hooker did in stainless was priced significantly higher than ceramic. Stainless is a beyotch to bend. Much higher pressures required which leads to increased wear on your wiper dies, and it still tends to wrinkle on the inside. Lots more scrap, and it is expensive scrap. Plus all your flanges cost more, in part because you can't flame or plasma cut them because stainless won't oxidize. And if you are building it out of stainless you might as well TIG the whole assembly. That takes longer and requires a more skilled operator. End result, it is pricey.

 

[Johnnie Walker]

When I was in auto tech school, years ago. My teachers that had experience with racing, etc. said that coating the inside is more important and makes more sense than the outside, if you only do one side. As one of the main purposes of the coating is to help decrease the heat.
With a proper coating on the inside (my understanding is that jet hot has this down to a science) heat is greatly minimized.

 

[Weasel]

use silicon bronze bolts for the hardware. I have coated 2 headers.

First was a Banks and I used Swaintech. They sucked. They had a huge lead time, like 1-1.5 months. Coating looked odd but it was my first one so figured it was normal. It was rough and looked like ceiling texture sprayed on and flaked off just like it.

Next Banks was by Calico. And they rock. The coating was smooth and looked liked I would expected. And they busted ass to get me the header coated and back in 3 days for our event 3 years ago. The coating is holding up just like it should.

 

[cherokeeproject]

So i Had a discussion on headers with my brother this weekend (another XJ owner) and he brought p some good points on the tuning. Long story short, I'm second guessing the JBA header, I want to order something today while everyone is still offering their holidays promotions. I definately want 2.5" exhaust from the header back, and stainless steel. Does anyone know of a header that's all stainless with 2.5" pipe at the merge collector? I know borla used to make a 2.5" option that has since been discontinued. But what about the banks, etc.?

 

[Talyn]

Swain tech or Callico for your coatings.

 

[markw]

I run a Borla -> 2.5" cat -> Walker Dynomax 2.5" catback. Works fine. The walker and tailpipe are aluminized. The cats don't last a long time as they usually get whacked on a rock or two during the course of their lifetime. The borla header is a nice part. I'd have to go look but I think I may have stepped it up from the header outlet. It is a slip fit and was easy to do.

 

[cherokeeproject]

So I've got the header, went ahead and got the JBA, I'm looking at the banks monster cat-back exhaust since its 2.5", stainless, and fairly inexpensive compared to the others. I'm looking at a catco 2.5" converter about 16" long, any suggestions on size to ensure I pass emissions? I'm not in California so it doesn't need to be CARB approved but we do have emissions testing here that I will need to pass. Since its a 96 I don't have per-cats or anything. My biggest struggle however is finding a 2.5" intermediate pipe in stainless steel. I really don't want to have to pay a muffler shop to fab one up because that will pretty much blow my budget. I found a walker intermediate pipe but its just a plain steel and it's not even mandrel bent. Anyone know of anything out the that's 2.5" pipe, stainless steel, and mandrel bent? I plan on putting a flex hose in between the intermediate pipe and the cat so it will get a little bit of fabrication when it goes in.