Responses from the oil manufacturers.

The other oil thread is up to 22 pages, and I got sick of reading everyone's anecdotal evidence of what the "best" oil is. This morning, I took 3 hours and wrote every major engine oil manufacturer with the following:

Hello,

Recently, we at the (North American XJ Association) have been debating the pros and cons of the various oils. To date, this "debate" is up to several hundred opionions on the pros and cons of various oils.

Rather then anecdotal evidence, I thought I would ask you about your product for use in our engines. Our engines (or most of them...) are the 4.0L inline 6 cylinder (found in Jeep Cherokees, Wranglers and Grand Cherokees). They have flat tappets, and so we know an oil with a higher level of ZDDP is desirable.

What is the ZDDP content of you various products? Do you have a recommendation on which product to use for our engines?

Thank you for your time, hundreds of us anticipate your response.

Sincerely,

Chris Clemens

In this thread, I'll post the responses as I get them. The only one I have so far is from Shell. Please don't turn this thread into an "I use this oil..." thread. If you want to talk about that, go to the 22 page thread. I would just like to use this thread to post the manufacturers responses and your comments.

Here goes the Shell response:

Chris, Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 CJ-4 has approximately 1200 ppm (parts per million) zinc anti-wear. This is 50% more zinc than current passenger car motor oils (API SM/ILSAC GF-4) which contain approximately 800 ppm zinc. Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm.

Thus, the new Rotella T with Triple Protection 15W-40 CJ-4 has the same zinc content that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappet engines began.

Thank you for your interest in Shell products.

P.S.- I know other people wrote to the manufacturers in the other thread, I just wanted a thread that consolidated their responses.

Mildly interesting, but:

1) See if you can't get the current "S" ratings for the oils as you accumulate information. The "C" rating is for "Compression Ignition" engines (read: Diesel) and the "S" for "Spark Ignition (read: gasoline.)

2) I think you're going to find that most of the oils that we would consider "useful" (~1000ppm organometallic content or higher) are still going to carry "Cy" ratings, while not having a rating beyond "SL" for spark-ignition engines. As I recall, the "SM" rating is the new "energy saving" rot with reduced organometallic content (i.e. ZDDP,) and that's what gets us with flat tappets into trouble. My wife's 2005 Verona uses a roller timing chain and is a DOHC inline six with roller followers - but my 1988 XJ is still a flat tappet.

NB: While you can use SL-rated oils or lower (probably down to about SI or so,) in engines rated for SM oils, you can run into warranty or emissions issues. The ZDDP/organometallic content is being reduced due to "catalyst poisoning" in the converter.

3) If possible, I'd like to see if you can collect datasheets on common production oils (which would save me the effort, since you're already writing them anyhow.) It's something I've been meaning to do for a little bit, but I've been busier with writing vehicle and component manufacturers of late, and haven't had time. It may also be a profitable line of research for you to write the American Petroleum Institute (API) and see if you can't get spec sheets for Sx-rated oils (say, SI-SM would probably serve) and see if you can't pass them along as well. I'd be willing to host them for viewing on my site to add to the discussion

Note - This thread is temporarily locked while I move it. I honestly think that posting information from the manufacturers would prove a useful adjunct to the discussions we've had here and on the Strokers e-group, but it's just in the wrong place.

Next response from Pennzoil:

The zinc and phosphorous levels were recently reduced (from the API SL levels) as there has been concerns that the oil that makes its way in to the combustion zone of your engine, carrying these anti-wear metals, were burning and poisoning the catalyst in the catalytic converters. If you are seeking higher zinc and phosphorous contents you may have to look to racing oil. We have a product that is called Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil and is available in SAE 50, 60 and 25W-50. It has approximately 1800-2000 ppm of zinc additive for extra wear protection. Other engine oils with comparable anti wear protection would include Shell Rotella T 15W-40 and Pennzoil Long Life 15W-40. Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical Information at 1-800-458-4998.
Sincerely
Product Technical Service

Here is the "S" rating of the oil manufacturer's various products (let me know if I forgot a mfg...). Note that I did not include any "c" ratings.

Chevron "Delo": SL

Mobil 1 (all products): SM

Pennzoil "Platinum": SM
"Conventional": SM
"High Mileage": SM
"SUV, Truck & Minivan": SM, except the 15-40 weight is CI-4 only
"GT Performance Racing Oil": SM

Quaker State "Peak Performance": SM
"Higher Mileage": SM
"Universal HDX": 15-40 is SL, 30 & 40 are SJ

Q Power "Horse Power": SM
"Torque Power": SL in 5-40. SM in all other weights
"High RPM": SM
"Racing": No spec, but contains ZDDP additives around 1800ppm

Shell "Rotella T": SM (note: Shell says this oil contains 1200ppm of ZDDP, which is around the same level as an SL oil)
"Rotella T Synthetic": SL

Valvoline "Conventional": SM
"Max Life": SM
"Max Life Full Synthetic": SM
"Durablend": SM
"Full Synthetic": SM
"VR1 Racing: SM (contains ZDDP additives to reach 1800-2000ppm level)
"Premium Blue Diesel": SM

Generally speaking, we want oils that are rated at SL, not SM. The exception to this is is when the oils have ZDDP additives, which appears to be the various racing oils that the manufacturers produce. The only exception to this is Rotella T which, according to them, has 1200 ppm ZDDP despite the SM rating.

Here are the specs from Mobil.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Looks like the 15W50 has good levels but I wonder how it would work in the winter at freezing temps. I used to run it in spring summer and fall but winter I went to a 10W30, that was in my S10 and my Trooper.

Its interesting that they both recommend 15w-40 diesel oil. Isnt the recommended oil by Jeep supposed to be 10w-30 for mild climates? I put 10w-40 into my jeep at it has 60psi of pressure at cold idle! It seems like the thicker oil would have really high pressure and not flow quite as well.

Red Line's Response:

Chris,

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in your 4L Jeep engine I would recommend the 10W30, the zinc level is 1330 ppm and more importantly the phosphorus is 1200 ppm. Our Motor oils still contain sufficient phosphorus for good flat tappet cam protection.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

edit: i see you figured it out and removed your post Weasel

Subscribed

Got this response from ExxonMobil (Mobil1):

Please contact Mobil at 1-800-662-4525 option1 so we may discuss your concerns.

Haha! So I called and described our concerns about the new "SM" oils being low in Zinc and Phosphorous. I told him we though that engines with flat tappet cams needed higher levels of ZDDP for protection. He agreed that any engine with a flat tappet cam should have at least 1200ppm ZDDP. Based on that, he recommended their 15w50 oil (and he recommended a drain interval of 7,500 miles or one year, BTW). It is an SM rated oil, but still contains 1200ppm of ZDDP.

FWIW, I told him that I thought that the "SM" rated oils could not contain that high a level of ZDDP, but he said that was not the case necessarily. They are just bound to certain emissions rules, and that if the motor oil can meet the certain API emissions standards, they can use however much ZDDP they want.

I don't know who the e-group Strokers are and how many of them there are but it is a real pain in the butt to follow this thread over here amongst all the fluff.

I wrote to Valvoline with the following question;

1989 Jeep Comanche 4.0 with 100k miles. Looking for a good oil that contains enough zddp.
_________________________________________________

Valvoline replied;

All Valvoline oils will contain enough ZDDP for this application, as high ZDDP is not required for a 1989 Jeep Comanche. All of our Valvoline products are suitable for use in this vehicle.
_________________________________________________

I replied;

I have been told that my unit has flat tappets and should have at least 1200 ppm.
_________________________________________________

Valvoline replied;

From: [email protected]

Date: October 29, 2008 11:53:21 AM EDT

The 1200 ppm of Zinc is something that would be required for a high performance racing engine with an oversize cam application. Not sure who is supplying this information to you, but any stock flat tappet cam application, only requires around 800 ppm of Zinc for protection and approximately 730 ppm of Phosphorus, as Zinc itself will not serve the purpose. If you would like to use the highest Zinc content product we have, that would be our Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, with 1300 ppm of Zinc and 1200 ppm of Phosphorus.

bgred2 said:

I wrote to Valvoline with the following question;

1989 Jeep Comanche 4.0 with 100k miles. Looking for a good oil that contains enough zddp.
_________________________________________________

Valvoline replied;

All Valvoline oils will contain enough ZDDP for this application, as high ZDDP is not required for a 1989 Jeep Comanche. All of our Valvoline products are suitable for use in this vehicle.
_________________________________________________

I replied;

I have been told that my unit has flat tappets and should have at least 1200 ppm.
_________________________________________________

Valvoline replied;

From: [email protected]

Date: October 29, 2008 11:53:21 AM EDT

The 1200 ppm of Zinc is something that would be required for a high performance racing engine with an oversize cam application. Not sure who is supplying this information to you, but any stock flat tappet cam application, only requires around 800 ppm of Zinc for protection and approximately 730 ppm of Phosphorus, as Zinc itself will not serve the purpose. If you would like to use the highest Zinc content product we have, that would be our Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil, with 1300 ppm of Zinc and 1200 ppm of Phosphorus.

Click to expand...

Good job...was never able to get Valvoline to even response. Their product data sheet lists the VR1 racing oil as having 1800ppm of ZDDP by the way.

heyjpark1 said:

Got this response from ExxonMobil (Mobil1):

Please contact Mobil at 1-800-662-4525 option1 so we may discuss your concerns.

Haha! So I called and described our concerns about the new "SM" oils being low in Zinc and Phosphorous. I told him we though that engines with flat tappet cams needed higher levels of ZDDP for protection. He agreed that any engine with a flat tappet cam should have at least 1200ppm ZDDP. Based on that, he recommended their 15w50 oil (and he recommended a drain interval of 7,500 miles or one year, BTW). It is an SM rated oil, but still contains 1200ppm of ZDDP.

FWIW, I told him that I thought that the "SM" rated oils could not contain that high a level of ZDDP, but he said that was not the case necessarily. They are just bound to certain emissions rules, and that if the motor oil can meet the certain API emissions standards, they can use however much ZDDP they want.

Click to expand...

His response to your question on how SM rated oils couldnt contain above 800 ppm of phosphorous or zinc is a load of crap.

The 15w50 is a Diesel oil and carries a Cx rating as its main rating. Look closely at the bottle and you will not find the API sunburst logo on it. The way that diesel oils are rated is different than how gasoline oils(Sx oils) are rated. If an oil can carry the Cx rating and meets the requirements of the Sx rating, they can use the Sx rating on the bottle but cannot use the API sunburst on the logo. Since the oil technically meets all the other performance requirements of the SM rating they are allowed to put it on the bottle. If you look closely at the way the Sx ratings are on the bottle you will see that it states something like "meets the requirements for CJ,CL+3,SL,SM". Shell Rotella T and Chevron Delo 400 both are labeled like this.

I know absolutely nothing about oil and really appreciate this information; especially since I need to change mine. How do synthetics rate compared to these oils in the 4.0? What are the pros/cons to using one oil vs. another. Thanks.

w_howey said:

His response to your question on how SM rated oils couldnt contain above 800 ppm of phosphorous or zinc is a load of crap.

The 15w50 is a Diesel oil and carries a Cx rating as its main rating. Look closely at the bottle and you will not find the API sunburst logo on it. The way that diesel oils are rated is different than how gasoline oils(Sx oils) are rated. If an oil can carry the Cx rating and meets the requirements of the Sx rating, they can use the Sx rating on the bottle but cannot use the API sunburst on the logo. Since the oil technically meets all the other performance requirements of the SM rating they are allowed to put it on the bottle. If you look closely at the way the Sx ratings are on the bottle you will see that it states something like "meets the requirements for CJ,CL+3,SL,SM". Shell Rotella T and Chevron Delo 400 both are labeled like this.

Click to expand...

I still don't see how his answer is crap. I understand what you're saying, but Mobil is drawing a distinction that no one has ever discussed: its not what goes in the oil..its what comes out the exhaust.