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2000 XJ, high miles, lots of new parts, still have vibration

N8N_99xj

NAXJA Forum User
[FONT=&quot]Good morning everyone[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]It's been a long time since I've been on here, I just haven’t been doing a lot of Jeep stuff and have had a lot of life shit thrown at me. But, I still do have an XJ albeit a different one, and now I could use some opinions/advice.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Maybe 10 years ago I bought a 1999 XJ from my cousin which was a great vehicle. I treated it like I was going to own it forever; unfortunately after maybe 4 years or so a part of the wiring harness chafed through, took out the PCM, and nobody could ever get it to run without a MIL again which was a non starter for me as I lived in Loudoun County VA which required annual emissions tests (nothing has changed since; I've lived in Montgomery and now Prince George's counties in MD and while here it's every two years, I couldn't have kept the poor thing.) I found a replacement that was in some ways better and some ways not; it's a 2000 XJ, 4.0, AW4, 242, 8.25 trac-lok, Upcountry suspension, and at some point someone added 16" Icon wheels (door sticker says 225/75R15 tires). The bad news is it had 250K miles when I bought it, and now almost 300K miles on it (probably going to turn 299K either tonight or tomorrow), leaks oil worse than a Harley (pass side of head), and has significantly more dents and rust than my old one. This was supposed to be a temporary beater vehicle but I've had it 5 years now and a) can't afford another vehicle for various reasons and b) have come to really like the combination of the upcountry suspension and the 242 transfer case, this is a very confidence inspiring bad weather bomber. However, due to my going through a real bad financial patch and also working 70-80 hour weeks regularly, Heep got nothing more than oil changes and repairs. Also, once Covid hit, I was really only going back and forth to the office which was 6 miles and involved no highway driving (this is important, I promise.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]So now to the situation. Late last year I found that the tires that I'd installed when I first bought the vehicle were close to the wear bars, and so I got on Tire Rack to see what there was. Rather than buying the same tires again (Yokohama Geolandar AT, their lack of traction in wet weather turned me off of them) I bought a set of General Grabber ATs size 235/70R16 as they appeared to be somewhat reasonably priced but were still excellently rated; even today they're Tire Rack's #3 rated tire in their "On-/Off-Road All-Terrain" category. At the time I was still working at my old job, but I ended up being notified that my services were no longer needed and started a new job at the beginning of January. My new job is much better, but it's about 25 miles each way and a lot of that drive is highway, with speeds up to ~85 MPH. A few months ago, it was time for an oil change and because I wasn't working as much I figured I would do it myself. I did, and I rotated the tires at the same time - the first time these new tires had been rotated - and almost immediately I noticed a severe vibration. At the same time, which probably isn't really relevant, my exhaust fell apart in front of the cat so Heep sat for a couple weeks, and at the same time I also changed the gear oil in the axles, ATF in transfer case, and also changed the ATF in the transmission a few times through the drain plug (it still looks bad, but better!) I’m making more money now, not enough to buy a new vehicle, but enough that if I feel that one of the vehicles I have needs parts, the only limiting factor is my available time to so the work.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I took the Heep to a shop a coworker recommended near the office and they balanced all four tires (they said that it needed it) and it felt much better, but there still was a vibration through the steering wheel and through the floor at ~50 MPH and up. Nowhere near as bad as before, but it was still there. To me, it felt like it was a higher frequency than I'd expect from wheels or tires so I immediately suspected driveshafts. I took both driveshafts out and had them rebuilt and balance checked by A-1 in Baltimore which was actually quite reasonable (less than $400 for both including centering ball, spring, etc. for the front). I also found a bad repair for a stripped pinion yoke on the rear axle, so I replaced the rear pinion yoke, bolts, and straps. The front driveshaft took over a week to get done because the shop had to wait for the centering ball and assorted parts to show up so I actually drove the Heep for about a week with no front driveshaft and annoyingly, while it appears that getting the driveshafts rebuilt was due, that was not the source of my vibration. While all this was going on, my left front wheel bearing went bad so I replaced both with new Timken ones (now made in China BTW), and I saw that my front brakes were getting pretty thin too so I installed new pads and rotors (kept old calipers because as you can see I've been spending lots of money on an old beater!)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Long story short, literally nothing I did made any difference whatsoever other than I had the satisfaction of knowing that all the mechanical stuff was right. At this point I have replaced everything that I would think could cause a vibration like I'm feeling; ball joints and tie rod ends feel OK, I thought maybe motor mounts but I literally can't get them right now, I have an order in with Brown Dog for the motor mounts but they're apparently made to order, and am waiting for Stinky to get back from vacation to order the trans mount, but I really don't think that's the issue.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]So, to recap, I have new tires, U-joints (the front axle ones have been replaced too within the last 50K miles, but those can’t be the issue anyway as I have vibration while driving perfectly straight), rear pinion yoke, front pads, rotors, and wheel bearings. Vibration still there and annoying enough because not only can I feel it it resonates at certain speeds, and with traffic sometimes I’m forced to drive at those speeds.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I took the Heep back to the shop that balanced the wheels and tires yesterday with all the shiny (OK, a lot of them are semi gloss black) parts underneath and asked them to take another look. They were cool about it and said that first, we apparently both missed that the top nut for the RF shock had vibrated off at some point (how was the bushing still there? I dunno) and they rebalanced the RF tire and found it in balance but road force was “way out” and they swapped right side F&R. I was assured that the wheels did not have noticeable runout (I asked, because three of these wheels I’ve never used before, because I bought them off Craigslist a few years back when I found that one of the wheels that came with the vehicle was badly bent. Seller would only sell four wheels as a set, and price was good enough I bought them all. I chose to use the “new” wheels when I put the tires on because that way I would get rid of the junk tires that were on them and keep my old worn but OK tires on known good wheels for spares, and then theoretically I would have a go/no go on all the wheels as to whether they would run true or not.) I did kind of get a vibe that while they were cool, they had done all they were going to do for me on this issue, the service writer mentioned several times that my tires did have a “very aggressive tread” (what do you expect? It’s a Jeep! Also, what I’m feeling is not the hum/buzz you’d expect from aggressive AT or MT tires.)[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Well, it still pretty much drives the same as it did when I got it back the first time. MAYBE the vibration is decreased a little bit, but it’s essentially the same. Yes, I know that it’s a hideously ugly 300K miles XJ, but theoretically it should drive well at this point.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Does anyone have any ideas what else I can check on this? I do have new Brown Dog motor mounts on order and am planning on ordering a trans mount from SFR once Stinky is back in the office, but other than that I don’t have any ideas besides find another shop to look at it which is embarrassing to me. I am thinking I probably should replace the steering damper, as at this mileage I bet it’s just cosmetic, but I feel that that’s just a band-aid which is masking the underlying problem. Also, recommendations on a shop good with these kinds of issues near me would be appreciated. I live in Berwyn Heights, MD and work near BWI.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Given that the shop seems to think that the tires and not the wheels are the problem, has anyone had any luck getting Tire Rack to swap them out? It really is bad enough that if they’d be willing to do that I’d consider it. It is odd that these tires are so well rated and yet they are riding so shitty for me.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Anyway, if you’ve read this far, thanks for doing so and let me know if you have any ideas or input.[/FONT]
 
Also, now I have a quandary as I would like to add a trailer hitch, brake controller, etc. I've already started taking apart stuff to make this happen, but have only bought the hitch and nut strips so far. If I am going to spend the money on a new trailer brake controller, wiring harness, etc. I really would like this to be in top shape chassis wise otherwise that's kind of wasted money. I have seen several cute little small travel trailers in the $1000-1200 range and would like to pick one up next time I see a good one, but don't currently have a vehicle set up for towing.
 
I got rid of a set of General Grabber ATs because even several Road Force balance attempts couldn't make them run smooth. They were mounted on stock XJ aluminum rims.

BFG T/A AT sometimes require a bunch of weight to balance, but they run smooth and last a long time. I have had good results from several sets of Kuhmo Road Venture AT51.

4x4 tires should rotated often, as in every 4-6,000 miles.
 
Huh. I didn't see that in the online reviews but I'm out of ideas what this could be except tires. Tires have about 8k miles on them and were rotated once; I do it every oil change so they're coming up on the next one. I guess I'll ping TR on Monday and see if I can trade them on different tires
 
The problem might be tire run-out related. An easy way to check is to jack up the suspect wheel and turn it to see if it looks out of round. Tire run-out should be no more than 1/8 inch. (Check this right after a few miles of driving.)

If the tires still show a red sidewall dot, then it should be clocked at the valve stem.
 
I got rid of a set of General Grabber ATs because even several Road Force balance attempts couldn't make them run smooth. They were mounted on stock XJ aluminum rims.

BFG T/A AT sometimes require a bunch of weight to balance, but they run smooth and last a long time.

yikes, in my size that's over $900 for a set of tires!

I have had good results from several sets of Kuhmo Road Venture AT51.


Looks like those are disco'd but the replacement AT52 are reasonably priced ($660/4)

It also looks like Falken has a Wildpeak A/T3W for about $740/set; I had a set of older Wildpeaks in 15" size on a previous XJ and they were fine, would have bought again for the new one but they didn't have any available in my size at that time so I bought the Yokohamas instead. I would have swapped the Wildpeaks over but wanted to keep the Icon wheels, that'll learn me. I won't buy the Yokohamas again because they were so bad in the rain.

Looking on Tire Rack, the two tires rated higher currently than the Generals I bought are the Falkens I mention above (#2) and the Cooper Discoverer AT3 4S (#1) any opinions on either? Choosing between the two I'd probably take the Falkens having had good previous experience with them and also having a higher snow traction rating.


I realize that Tire Rack ratings don't often correlate with the priorities of members here, but my use for my Jeep is 99% on road, I just want bad weather and bad road confidence, so I'm guessing that my priorities are probably closer to TR than many here as well.


Any other tires I should look at?
 
Update: it looks like I purchased these tires 1 year and 17 days ago and the "uniformity warranty" is 1 year or 2/32". FML. Tire rack is offering me a discount on a new set of tires however, so discussion above is relevant.


As an aside is there any way to edit your posts here and I'm just blind, or has that option been disabled?


thanks for any advice.
 
I'm kinda stumped on your vibration. My hard to find vibration ended up being the worn slip shaft on the front drive shaft. 2 thoughts:
1) I'm surprised you didn't like the Geolandars. I ran them for years with no issues. I'm running Cooper Discoverer XLT AT right now and like them so far.
2) I also had a high mileage XJ (400K, got it when it had 30K) but it was a 2WD and I decided to upgrade last year to an 01 XJ 4WD. Anyways, I have always run Dynabeads and they are great. Going to get your tires balanced regularly is a headache where I live. Now I just rotate myself every time I change the oil. Huge time saver. The only downside is you need to keep some spare Dynabeads on hand in case you have to get a flat repaired. Dynamic balancing has been around a long time and there are other brands that are cheaper if you look around. The Dynabead site has some good info and also a chart to tell you how many ounces for a given tire size.
https://www.innovativebalancing.com/index.php
 
I am happy with Falken Wildpeaks. Happy enough with them on my XJ that I now also have a set on my Suburban.
 
I'm kinda stumped on your vibration. My hard to find vibration ended up being the worn slip shaft on the front drive shaft. 2 thoughts:
1) I'm surprised you didn't like the Geolandars. I ran them for years with no issues. I'm running Cooper Discoverer XLT AT right now and like them so far.
2) I also had a high mileage XJ (400K, got it when it had 30K) but it was a 2WD and I decided to upgrade last year to an 01 XJ 4WD. Anyways, I have always run Dynabeads and they are great. Going to get your tires balanced regularly is a headache where I live. Now I just rotate myself every time I change the oil. Huge time saver. The only downside is you need to keep some spare Dynabeads on hand in case you have to get a flat repaired. Dynamic balancing has been around a long time and there are other brands that are cheaper if you look around. The Dynabead site has some good info and also a chart to tell you how many ounces for a given tire size.
https://www.innovativebalancing.com/index.php


I'm going with the shop was right and it really is the tires, so right now I'm really just kind of vacillating between ordering Coopers and Falkens. I was happy with the older model Falkens on my old XJ and likely would have used them had it not been that my old XJ had steel 15" wheels and my "new" one has 16" Icons. Here's what they put on the ticket, verbatim:


found balance on pass side front was out but road force on tire was at 52 lbs - rotated pass side tires


so after researching (I've never used as road force balancer, when my buddy had a shop he just had the typical dynamic balancer) it appears that supposedly >20 lbs. force variation may be perceptible. Well, with the 52 lb. tire on the back, I STILL have perceptible vibration in the steering wheel and throughout (the rear seatback rattles, it's super annoying) which tells me that there's at least one maybe two other tires that are also out of round. With 25% off I should be able to come in under $500 for new tires, and it'd be well worth it to me if it means that this thing will actually ride smoothly for once. I'm spending over an hour a day in it these days and I just want to be done with this exercise so I can move on to fixing up my car (which also needs a lot of work these days.)
 
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