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Master cylinder upgrade

coloradoinsane

NAXJA Forum User
Location
colorado
Hey guys. Did a disc brake conversion on my 2000 XJ this week. Everything went smooth until I drove it the first time. Pedal was pretty spongey for my liking. And no, there wasn't any air in the system (bled the crap outa it). From all that I've read the stock MC (master cylinder) doesn't move enough volume for front and rear discs. (Waggy dana 44 single piston calipers up front, el dorado rear calipers) from what I had read the 98' and up MC was a direct fit so I swapped out the MC and put the longer push rod (bolt with head ground off) on. All went smooth again except now the pedal is too darn firm, can barely lock up the brakes on pavement going 10 mph (and that's nearly standing on the pedal). I checked the brake booster-vacuum line is still connected with not leaks. Any suggestions?
 
Never heard of the MCs getting swapped between years of XJ. I'd thought they were all the same after the Renix years.

Pedal too firm, if the hydraulic component sizes haven't changed, has got to be a booster problem. If you went to a 1.25 or 1.37 bore master cylinder, I'd say it was that...
 
Never heard of the MCs getting swapped between years of XJ. I'd thought they were all the same after the Renix years.

Pedal too firm, if the hydraulic component sizes haven't changed, has got to be a booster problem. If you went to a 1.25 or 1.37 bore master cylinder, I'd say it was that...

Oops! Sorry guys, I meant to say from a 98 dodge 2500 (1.25 bore, was under the impression that it would move the needed amount of fluid). Kids were distracting me while I was typing it up!
 
Oops! Sorry guys, I meant to say from a 98 dodge 2500 (1.25 bore, was under the impression that it would move the needed amount of fluid). Kids were distracting me while I was typing it up!

you swapped the dodge master? that thing is way too big for those brakes. stock (97+) MC/BB works great for the brakes you're running, my buddy had the same setup and it felt awesome.
 
you swapped the dodge master? that thing is way too big for those brakes. stock (97+) MC/BB works great for the brakes you're running, my buddy had the same setup and it felt awesome.

Well, I had the 98'+ in mine (its a 2000 xj) and it felt way too soft. Wondering if the durango 1.125 bore would be what I need.
 
Yep. I think you need the 1.125 MC. Dana 44 brakes aren't 3/4 ton truck big.
Go with the Durango cylinder or Dana 60s.
 
That won't help him. The WJ master cylinder bore is the same size as his XJ's, 1". If there is any upgrade on the WJ system it is in the booster. However, I tried it and noticed no difference from my 2000 XJ setup. The WJ may be good for those with the single diaphragm booster though.
 
I'm going to ask the dumb question. Did you mount the rear calipers on the correct sides? The bleeder screw should be at the top.

I have the ZJ rear discs, stock 96 MC/booster and stock XJ prop valve with ceramic pads all the way around.

I can lock down anytime I need too. Sounds like to me you either have air in the system or you MC/booster has issues.
 
If you didn't touch the proportioning valve, you should, when you get the system correct, you are going to need a reduction in pedal pressure to the rear, as they will lock up faster as the rear unloads, and the front takes more load under braking.
I've seen some systems where no matter what you do, you need to pressure bleed the brakes, as opposed to pumping th pedal, or using a vaccum pump. Case in point is my buddies zj, we ended up removing the abs block, and after repeated attempts at pump/hold, big vaccum bleeder, and pump/hold again, we ended up having to build a pressure bleeder out of a bug pump to get all the air out.
If the pedal is too firm, you MC choice is too large for your application, remember, you are using a 1/2 ton caliper in the front, and a car caliper in the back, so stuff designed for trucks may still have too much volume. I know from talking t ofull size guys that those eldorado calipers are less than ideal in heavy situations, just not enough surface area to make a vehicle stop good.
The other problems may be is you choice of pads and rotors.
 
It sounds like you have air in the system.

I've got a 44/60 with chevy half ton front brakes and explorer rears, with a stock 95 master cylinder and booster. Pedal is rock solid and I can lock up 37's with Black Magic pads.

We're not talking massive brakes here, and our stock master cylinder is more than sufficient.
 
Going to revive this one as well.

I've had a few threads on the subject of WJ fronts, KJ rears, with XJ MC and booster. Long short, the fronts lock up easily while the rears barely grab. There is no air in the system and the prop valve is not the problem (i've removed it to test, but also, I've verified that the prop valve is still open when the fronts are locked, while the rear's can still be turned by hand).

I haven't heard of anyone else with the WJ (akebono dual piston) fronts, with the KJ rears. I'm wondering if anyone can answer this:
In the XJ MC, is the secondary piston smaller than the primary (ie: front piston larger than rear, thus more fluid volume to front than rear), or does anyone know if the KJ rears are just way higher volume than the WJ fronts?
 
I havent actually installed KJ rears, but I've looked at KJ fronts, and they are tiny compared to a WJ.

I would think the problem lies somewhere else.
 
I havent actually installed KJ rears, but I've looked at KJ fronts, and they are tiny compared to a WJ.

I would think the problem lies somewhere else.

Somewhere else such as?
One note: If I bleed everything out real good, the pull a rear caliper, give the pedal a half a pump or so, then manually compress the rear piston back in and re-install, the rears work much better. Still crap, but they at least contribute to my braking somewhat. Still no where near being able to lock them up on even wet pavement.

I can't find any bulging lines (all steel and steel braided), and all 4 calipers are now brand new, as well as new pads/rotors. The other test I did was to have my buddy step on the brake as hard as he can. This locks the fronts, but the rears can still be turned by hand usually. While he's still on it, I cracked a bleeder on the front so the pedal would come down further, thus forcing more fluid to the rear, and sure enough, the rears locked up (at least to the point I coudln't turn them by hand, and they're capable of stopping my engine at idle.

The fronts work ridiculously well. On dry pavement in 2wd, they have no problem locking up my 35's. If I throw it in 4x4, the fronts will actually lock the rears through the driveline. This works fine on the trail, but on the street I can't be in 4x4, and ultimately on the street is where I really need the brakes to be working.

I've found fluid volumes, piston bores and strokes for every MC and caliper except the WJ and KJ calipers, and can't find anyone who's actually confirmed the bore/stroke of BOTH pistons on the XJ MC. Everyone says they're 50/50, but that I suspect is just a guess, as no one ever seems to post the actual bore/stroke.

I'll probably pull the MC tonight and tear it down to measure for myself, but even if I find that both MC pistons are equal stroke/bore, I still don't know the volumes for the calipers. For all I know, the KJ rear requires twice the volume of the WJ fronts. *shrugs*
 
Without having to reread the entire pair of threads, what master and prop valve are you currently on?
 
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