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Important

You said it... It's a design series first. That's the problem! It's not fair to the smaller schools that can't afford to build their entire car out of titanium and carbon fiber. It's like trying to win a magazines supercar of the year with a Fiero.

The teams placing in formula year after year had budgets of 500k. When a formula team with a budget of 20k ranks top 3 I'll listen.

You're comparing ultra4 to something that's meant to be a learning experience...
tiers may be a good addition? formula already has classes. in the end, if you just want to show up and have a good time, a lot of schools do that. if you went to XXX school just for their SAE programs, you might have went to that school for the wrong reasons.

ultimately, its survival of the fittest. are tier 1 companies supposed to stop production because they are preventing mom and pop shops from growing? (sounds like communism to me). no, those companies make do with the provisions they have, and live their niche. it takes a lot of hard work to make the jump. some are content where they are at, some stride for years to make gains.






your correlating budget to learning experience and highlighting the racing aspect.

i dont understand the animosity you have with SAE. its a COMPETITION. there will always likely be a top tier group, those just starting out, and the rest of the competitive field. how will that ever be "fair"? the darn special olympics arent even a "fair" contest most of the time.
 
It should be faster now...

52f6065adcc1146ac1302c0241328fd6.jpg


Fore 'race the truck!' Wheeler

Would be better with a wizard mural on the side.
 
Give you $5 for the headphones since you don't need them anymore apparently.
 
With that mentality, why even go to the event?


How many schools compete? Im sure the top 30 or so line out into very noticeable budget and group dynamic categories. Id like to know where my talents would stack up against teams of comparable levels.

Competing within your "class" is still great competition
 
i dont understand the animosity you have with SAE. its a COMPETITION. there will always likely be a top tier group, those just starting out, and the rest of the competitive field. how will that ever be "fair"? the darn special olympics arent even a "fair" contest most of the time.


My problem with it is their "design" aspect has gotten so out of control, its out of reach for most schools to be remotely competitive.

They reward the most exotic materials and outsourcing labor.... the kids coping their own tube are lucky to place top 30 because they could barely afford the DOM to make their chassis. The day they start rewarding teams for welding their own chassis', I'll change my opinion. It's all about learning valuable skills right? Because right now it's a money race.

That and I love watching all the SAE nutswingers get their jimmies rustled.
 
My problem with it is their "design" aspect has gotten so out of control, its out of reach for most schools to be remotely competitive.

They reward the most exotic materials and outsourcing labor.... the kids coping their own tube are lucky to place top 30 because they could barely afford the DOM to make their chassis. The day they start rewarding teams for welding their own chassis', I'll change my opinion. It's all about learning valuable skills right? Because right now it's a money race.

That and I love watching all the SAE nutswingers get their jimmies rustled.
i think your misguided... or have an extremely bad taste in your mouth from formula.

in baja, they typically only reward exotic materials when justified. what they really want to see is validation. FEA, selection matricies, yada yada yada. what options did you explore? why did you chose this over that? they are perfectly fine with you opting to use a manufactured part vs making your own, you just have to validate why. maybe you cant make it lighter, or as strong, or as cheaply... etc. or you can go the other extreme, and justify exotic materials and elaborate machining processes by it being the best option to meet your design intent.

the teams that dont do well on paper are the ones that show up just to race. which is fine, have a good time. im sure its MUCH less stressful.
 
I just saved a bunch of money on my insurance by switching to.........Progressive... $30/less a month for better coverage and roadside assistance!
 
i think your misguided... or have an extremely bad taste in your mouth from formula.

in baja, they typically only reward exotic materials when justified. what they really want to see is validation. FEA, selection matricies, yada yada yada. what options did you explore? why did you chose this over that? they are perfectly fine with you opting to use a manufactured part vs making your own, you just have to validate why. maybe you cant make it lighter, or as strong, or as cheaply... etc. or you can go the other extreme, and justify exotic materials and elaborate machining processes by it being the best option to meet your design intent.

the teams that dont do well on paper are the ones that show up just to race. which is fine, have a good time. im sure its MUCH less stressful.


My experience in Formula was the opposite. It was who can stuff the most electronics and machine the worlds weakest hub out of unobtanium. My experience didn't reward common sense or skills beyond solidworks.

Having said that I can't speak for Baja. I've never been involved

Funny you mentioned that last part, I suggested we go that latter route once with the old car after being 3 months behind schedule due to budgeting mishaps.

I was quickly informed by then pencil pushers that this was unacceptable so we went the year on the sidelines.

I feel that's the attitude SAE is creating. That it's better to sit on the sidelines because our budget didn't allow titanium spindles on a new car.
 
My experience in Formula was the opposite. It was who can stuff the most electronics and machine the worlds weakest hub out of unobtanium. My experience didn't reward common sense or skills beyond solidworks.

Having said that I can't speak for Baja. I've never been involved

Funny you mentioned that last part, I suggested we go that latter route once with the old car after being 3 months behind schedule due to budgeting mishaps.

I was quickly informed by then pencil pushers that this was unacceptable so we went the year on the sidelines.

I feel that's the attitude SAE is creating. That it's better to sit on the sidelines because our budget didn't allow titanium spindles on a new car.

damn missed the SAE conversation, Some of us have to work ;)

I noticed the budget comment, RIT (both formula and baja) usually do very well in competitions doesn't have that high of a budget (the 500k you said earlier) when compared to other schools, we were probably less then 30k for everything. They get a little money from the school and a lot from local companies because they are out fundrasing all the time. Sponsorship was huge for the RIT baja team when I was president and I know it was big for formula too.

most of the fabrication was in house when I was on the team, the only things we didn't do was spline, gear, heat treating because we had sponsors to do it for us.
 
At this particular juncture we're just hoping for an extension to clean up what they took issue with. My biggest fear is that they're going to deny an extension and start fining the living crap out of us. We're just going to have to deal with what we can and go from there. Our inspector at least seems like she wants to go to bat for us. She seems irritated to be in this position and I can't blame her. Overall, this just sucks.


After all my problems with the village idiots, I can't give you a place to hide the bodies... But if you need a set of hands to help clean stuff up, let me know.

The county board chairman wants to help out WCL..... sounds like a story ripe for the Times guys to print.... That might be the two groups they hate the most... the county board and WCL.
 
damn missed the SAE conversation, Some of us have to work ;)

I noticed the budget comment, RIT (both formula and baja) usually do very well in competitions doesn't have that high of a budget (the 500k you said earlier) when compared to other schools, we were probably less then 30k for everything. They get a little money from the school and a lot from local companies because they are out fundrasing all the time. Sponsorship was huge for the RIT baja team when I was president and I know it was big for formula too.

most of the fabrication was in house when I was on the team, the only things we didn't do was spline, gear, heat treating because we had sponsors to do it for us.


Not sure how long it's been for you but 2 years ago it was ridiculous what the international teams were spending. Sickening.

It's a freakin go kart, not the international space station.
 
Not sure how long it's been for you but 2 years ago it was ridiculous what the international teams were spending. Sickening.

It's a freakin go kart, not the international space station.

graduated in 09, and helped organize a few baja comps after I graduated.

I guess I could see some of the German formula teams going pretty damn high in costs, but you have to remember there ultimate goal is to get on an actual formula/racing team so if they win the actual comp it is huge for the resume for them.

My baja team probably had one of the higher budgets amount teams when I was on it, we did a lot of work to get there. hell we had a small group that would just make sponsorship calls and fundraise, it was more of a small company then a couple of guys building a car in someone's garage. we did a lot of recruiting and had a large team so we could have people take on specific jobs.

back then we could bring two cars to a race, now every little community college want to show up with a car. There are some teams that don't even turn one lap or compete in one event at the comp. There are some formula teams that are the exact same way.

Baja helped me get a great job and taught me a lot about dealing with people, most engineers are not very good with people.
 
Re: Re: Important

At this particular juncture we're just hoping for an extension to clean up what they took issue with. My biggest fear is that they're going to deny an extension and start fining the living crap out of us. We're just going to have to deal with what we can and go from there. Our inspector at least seems like she wants to go to bat for us. She seems irritated to be in this position and I can't blame her. Overall, this just sucks.
They can't just fine you without the court involved.

Around here it takes at least 90 days before they can even get you to the courthouse, and then they give you time to clean it up, and then there's appeals, and maybe after a year you'll actually get fined.

Look into the code. Call the local law director , or pay a lawyer the hundred bucks for a sit down so you know the process and where you stand. It will be money will spent.

87 'plays the game' manche
 
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